Actions Per Minute

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!
User avatar
Rman Virgil
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3812
Joined: 25 Sep 2006, 01:06
Location: USA

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Rman Virgil »

aubergine wrote:A good point about macro control. Agreed that automating stuff too much will detract from game.

........
If you're around long enough you get to witness the circle of history up close. :ninja:

In the WZ wiki linked discussion on this subject provided above from 8 years ago this was one of the foundational guidelines articulated from the get go - and a crux one indeed to keep uppermost in mind I very much still believe. ;)

- Regards, RV. 8)

.
User avatar
Shadow Wolf TJC
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1047
Joined: 16 Apr 2011, 05:12
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

One of the reasons why I continue to enjoy Warzone 2100 even today in the 1st place was that it had some features that allowed players to automate some of the more situational and demanding micromanagement tasks, such as ordering units to attack from long or short range, or ordering them to retreat upon reaching X damage. The commanders were also used to automate various tasks, such as allowing retreating units to rejoin them after being repaired, or automatically assigning units that were produced from factories to them. This was presumably done in order to help reduce the amount of micromanagement required by players, allowing them to focus more on the bigger picture.

While I wouldn't mind the addition of an actions-per-minute counter, I am greatly opposed to the removal of any of Warzone 2100's more newbie-friendly micromanagement-reducing features, including Commanders. :x (Although, if I were to create a spiritual sequel to this game, then I'd probably want to replace Commanders with a special Group AI that incorporates many of these features, though without requiring a physical presence like Commanders do.)
Creator of Warzone 2100: Contingency!
Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Emdek »

Who wants removing commanders? :shock:
I personally only want to have fixed that issue with auto unassigned damaged artillery units, by (choose one solution):
  • by fixing that bug or removing that feature (depending how it is interpreted currently);
  • adding separate turret to command artillery in the same way as normal ones (available after researching commanders and when having CRC);
  • extending capabilities of sensor units.
The last point could be done in that way so after researching commanders (and still having CRC structure) sensor units could be allowed to be delivery points (in all cases I personally think that all sensors could have some limits for amount of assigned artillery, also commanders - could be static, like 10 units).

Or make actual use of CRC structure, if we have it then both commanders and sensors would be able to work as delivery points but when it gets destroyed then this is not available anymore (in fact without it commanders should stop targeting...).

I really don't like that artillery units are more like second class citizen when it comes to managing them.
Sensors are commanders equivalent for them except that I'm not sure if they focus all fire on one spot (probably does), can't be delivery points (this is not real issue in campaign) and probably also unassigns retreating units (which leads to leaving unassigned units behind or forces to reconnect them each time - that is for sure true for commanders, not sure if also applies to sensors).
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Shadow Wolf TJC
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1047
Joined: 16 Apr 2011, 05:12
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

Perhaps Sensor, CB, Radar Detector, and Wide Spectrum Sensor units and towers (and HQs, Satellite Uplinks, and any other building with some sort of sensor functionality) could be treated as special variants of Commanders then? Though they'd have to be limited to only allowing artillery units (and perhaps even VTOLs if we're wanting to merge VTOL Strike Turrets with Sensor Turrets, and VTOL CB Turrets with CB Turrets) to be under their command. Commanders are more meant for leading groups of tanks in battle.
Creator of Warzone 2100: Contingency!
Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Emdek »

Yeah, that would be big change, but more like giving more possibilities than removing existing ones.
As I've heard of current commanders code is more like crap (they work more like a transport internally).
But if we will choose to have limits (change from current behavior) then there is issue with structures (the one which caused rejection of structures experience) then how it should be solved (unlimited assigning is bad idea if we have limits for standard units), by making commander upgrade in MP actually work (these with are supposed to increase amount of assigned units, according to their descriptions - someone said that doesn't work)?
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Shadow Wolf TJC
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1047
Joined: 16 Apr 2011, 05:12
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

There's no limit to how many artillery units a Commander can have assigned to them anyways, right? Although, I do see your point on how experience would be handled for artillery units. Now, I don't know if artillery units are treated as being of a higher experience level while assigned to a Commander, but who said that it would have to be the same when assigned to a Sensor? Maybe they wouldn't be treated as if their experience level was any higher? Maybe they would be treated as one experience level higher at the very least? I'm kind of neutral in terms of how this should be done though.
Creator of Warzone 2100: Contingency!
Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Emdek »

Well, in fact experience gaining is not an issue for me, it could work just like it works for units leaded by commander (I don't remember exact algorithm). ;-)
The experience issue is about structures which would work as semi commanders (as I interpret your suggestion from previous post).

And yes, AFAIK there is no limits for artillery in every case which is weird comparing to that there are limits for standard units for commanders, maybe that was originally done to not "exploit" that delivery point capability (if yes then it is weak, due to numerous reasons big groups usually doesn't make sense and such limit should be applied only to artillery which don't need to get too close to enemy to fire anyway)?
If so then all delivery point capable units (including sensor enabled structures) would need to have such limits to be consistent (assuming that this was reason for limits in first place).
And at this point we have the above experience issue, since in campaign the only way to increase amount of assignable units depends on commander experience (which couldn't apply to structures as they don't gain experience...) and in MP it is supposed to require researching to enable assigning of more units.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
aubergine
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3462
Joined: 10 Oct 2010, 00:58

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by aubergine »

Just allow sensor droids/structures to act as commanders and do away with the crummy commander unit. Command turret research should just basically enable increasing numbers of droids to be assigned to a sensor (regardless of whether that sensor is on a droid or a structure). And I don't think there should be any difference between arty and normal droids - the limit of number of assigned droids should be absolute and you should be able to assign any kind of droids until the total number of droids assigned = that limit number for the sensor.
"Dedicated to discovering Warzone artefacts, and sharing them freely for the benefit of the community."
-- https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/display/GO
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Emdek »

Removing commanders would be too big change, I would opt for giving sensors more capabilities after researching commanders and also I would think about some limits for amount of assigned artillery (at least to mobile sensors).
Then we could kill that distinction between normal units and artillery for normal commanders (as currently that fire support isn't really helpful and it's really much more handy to have separate group of artillery assigned to that "numbered groups", as it is then easier to manage, like place them in safe place, behind group managed by commander).

But those are a bit invasive changes, although I think that they would mostly improve gameplay.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Nameless
Trained
Trained
Posts: 176
Joined: 03 May 2010, 08:25
Location: Space, the Final Frontier

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Nameless »

In terms of change;

I believe that having such a mod could lead a better development or emphasis on Build Orders that I also see lacking in the WZ world.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Build_order

( And yes, I know you know what I did just there ;) )
If you're reading this; you're awesome.
User avatar
Rman Virgil
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3812
Joined: 25 Sep 2006, 01:06
Location: USA

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Rman Virgil »

.

Let me try again to to get pass the selective exposure in-play so far (on all sides)...

Nameless wrote:In terms of change;

I believe that having such a mod could lead a better development or emphasis on Build Orders that I also see lacking in the WZ world.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Build_order

( And yes, I know you know what I did just there ;) )

Interesting. My experience with WZ MP is just the opposite. Which is to say I think the GPM bias is weighted too far on the side of Build Order such that outcomes are rote determined very early on, prior to in theater combat (this is how I also understand Iluvalar's work & insights which coincide with my own experience and experiments over the years). In turn this build order bias has the direct consequence of narrowing down the scope of mid-late game in-theater combat tacs to a simplistic arcade style that practically eliminates a whole combat world of viscerally compelling victory tacs based on risky, but clever & complex, asymmetric maneuver.

Which if you refer to my previous posts you can see my obvious focus on expanding the range of combat tacs in-theater and specifically doing this my evolving Commanders based on WZ Creator's original GPM vision for them which I do not see as being just a variant of sensor system mechanics. Thus to offset the early game bias weighting of Build Order mechanics, I would introduce Commanders earlier on along with those intimated enhanced abilities.

I am (& have been since day one) very keen on Commanders for reasons that embrace Pumpkin's original vision for them along with some of my own insights into compelling game design vis-a-vis the combat experience (purely visceral & by mechanized extention), 21st century warfare doctrine, hard-wired heuristics identified by the cognitive-neurological sciences of last decade + and last, but not least, the good interactive fiction crafting that creates the virtual visceral immersion known as the willing suspension of disbelief (this last would be entirely sacrificed by both elliminating Commanders as such or by demoting them to sensor system variants).

I speak to Commanders from a very different place than any of you here. I actually had long, detailed, deeply interesting & thoroughly enjoyable conversations with several of the original creators of the game from the Pumpkin Studios team about them (& l8r when they became Pivotal Games) - along with much else about the game. This doesn't by any means make me an authority but it is a fact of my relationship to the game and does speak to the lasting formation of my perspective (first hand 1998-2012) which comes through in most everything I have to say about it along with all my acts & deeds throughout.

- Regards, RV. :hmm:

.
.

Impact = C x (R + E + A + T + E)

Contrast
Reach
Exposure
Articulation
Trust
Echo
.
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Emdek »

Rman Virgil, can you share with us their opinions / ideas (as list with points, but in "short" form ;-))?
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Rman Virgil
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3812
Joined: 25 Sep 2006, 01:06
Location: USA

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Rman Virgil »

Emdek wrote:Rman Virgil, can you share with us their opinions / ideas (as list with points, but in "short" form ;-))?
That's a tall order. And not just because of the concision you request. ;)

I must balance the past with the present, WZ Creators original vision and intent with their standing position since shortly after source liberation of staying strictly out of the public mix (best believe they still follow the proceedings and play the binaries).

Let me sleep on it. I'll do my best to respond within those total parameters tomorrow, Sunday.

- Regards, RV. :hmm:
.
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by Emdek »

Rman Virgil, OK, good idea. :-)
Personally I think that such information should be placed in separate place, like that thread with unimplemented things, to be not lost.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
NoQ
Special
Special
Posts: 6226
Joined: 24 Dec 2009, 11:35
Location: /var/zone

Re: Actions Per Minute

Post by NoQ »

Nameless wrote:In terms of change;

I believe that having such a mod could lead a better development or emphasis on Build Orders that I also see lacking in the WZ world.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Build_order
I don't think it's lacking. Well, it's not as developed as in starcraft, but i use very clean well-tested build orders most of the time, and i teach my AI to use them as well. Some of the most currently notable include factory-lab-command-factory-factory-gen fastest machinegun rush (sometimes with early cannons) (with one or two extra trucks) and lab-factory-factory-lab-command-gen (and tech directly to halftracks in first lab) (with 5 extra trucks, to compensate late oil hunt start) (usually transitioning to rockets, since you have early engineering anyway).