Actions Per Minute

[Nameless]

It's been a long time since I visited these here forums and during my absence as I was playing StarCraft: Brood War; it suddenly occurred to me that WZ may not have an Action Per Minute mod that allows a real-time counter of actions that a player makes.

In the world of StarCraft, APM is "a measurement of a player's load-handling capacity and is one of the metrics for judging player skill. Ideally, APM includes only "productive" actions because APM can be artificially inflated by superfluous repetitive actions."

In other words, it may be of benefit to those of you who know that your losses can be/are attributed to turtling too much or not microing enough to last throughout the match.

A (tentative) list of actions would include;

• 1. selecting a unit/building
  2. ordering it (attack, move, patrol, repair, build, stop, hold position, etc)
  3. training a unit,
  4. building a structure

[aubergine]

Link for anyone wanting to know more about APM: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Actions_per_minute

[Rman Virgil]

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There's even more to it than this and a whole dimension of relevance to WZ's enhancement and evolution that I first experimented with a few years back in War School and continued most recently in SP 8c-ManGodAi4x & 4c-AquaCoop MP.

Let me expand just a wee bit.

In the late 1980's this was dubbed in the cognitive sciences of expertise as CTA for Cognitive Task Analysis.

Derived from CTA are Cognitive Design and Cognitive Ergonomics. We use all 3 of these in VR Serious Games to refine GPMs as well as their design integration with associated GUI's / A.I. assist & HUDs.

A specific and crux application of all this in WZ would be with the Commander Turret and it's combat group Command and Control UI.

The connection here with the new JS API and a UI widget schema that is more re-design friendly is clear in its generative scope... IMHO, natch.

There are also direct, but subtle, correlations here with Balance issues that are also worth delving into which is more appropriately fodder for another thread.

- Regards, RV.

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[Nameless]

.. in other words; adding such a mod/addon would bring about a depth not before seen in the WZ world of gaming??

[Rman Virgil]

.. in other words; adding such a mod/addon would bring about a depth not before seen in the WZ world of gaming??

Very much so.

The full potential of Commanders, as WZ creators envisioned back in 1997 - 1998 but couldnot bring to full term because of economic and tech contraints, could be realized alas.

Commanders, even in their current rudimentary state, are still at the heart of WZ's unique identity in the RTS genre - to this day, some 15 years after their original conception. Their full development would be, without hype I believe, a genre "game changer" and put the game on the genre map as it should have been had Eidos not bailed-out prematurely on the game & its creators, Pumpkin Studios, back in 1999 just a few short months after retail release.

Contrary to what some seem to believe, that WZ's fate is to be a niche strategy game with a tiny audience of die-hards in perpetuity, greater popularity has always been in the cards, from day one, and this would be part of that segue.

- Regards, RV.

[aubergine]

I'm not so sure WZ is as niche as we might think it is:

http://sourceforge.net/directory/games/ ... y-updated/

Look at number of weekly downloads. Lots!

While these forums might be fairly quiet, there do seem to be a great many people downloading the game.

As for commanders, I'm still not convinced by them. Sure, your units gain experience quicker, but other than that they are doing little more than say assigning a unit to a sensor would.

What might be interesting is to have the ability to research AI scripts (the scripts being written in Javascript so a community could start building them). Basic mods could be things like target designators, but as research levels get higher the amount of JS API exposed to the commander scripts could increase, allowing more complex things to happen with commanders, evenutually cumulating in them being able to co-ordinate between each other and choose their own targets, etc.

A proof-of-concept could likely be written with the currently release 3.1 Beta 4, by having a modded rules.js that starts to adapt commander units based on where you are in the normal research tree.

I was wondering, is it possible to attach sensors to commander droids? And if so, does the sensor then target for the whole group? Or is it only the commander that can do that?

[Nameless]

As for commanders, I'm still not convinced by them. Sure, your units gain experience quicker, but other than that they are doing little more than say assigning a unit to a sensor would.

Personally I don't get the whole experience thing. Number of kills maybe, but that's it. Then again I come from a RTS world where unit-to-unit experience is moot and at best; an indication of your micro-management skills.

What might be interesting is to have the ability to research AI scripts (the scripts being written in Javascript so a community could start building them). Basic mods could be things like target designators, but as research levels get higher the amount of JS API exposed to the commander scripts could increase, allowing more complex things to happen with commanders, eventually cumulating in them being able to co-ordinate between each other and choose their own targets, etc.

You mean like developing an API for which an external program could use in developing custom maps, scenarios, campaigns, etc.? In other words; for what StarEdit is to SC/BW?

I was wondering, is it possible to attach sensors to commander droids? And if so, does the sensor then target for the whole group? Or is it only the commander that can do that?

There's only one way to find out

<a bit more on topic>
With a mod such as this; me thinks it would naturally lead to an increased development/innovation of build orders that for the most part I (personally speaking) see lacking in WZ.

[Rman Virgil]

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As for commanders, I'm still not convinced by them. Sure, your units gain experience quicker, but other than that they are doing little more than say assigning a unit to a sensor would.

Personally I don't get the whole experience thing. Number of kills maybe, but that's it. Then again I come from a RTS world where unit-to-unit experience is moot and at best; an indication of your micro-management skills.

We discussed this at great length in 2004 @ RTS dot Net after receiving word from chief software engineer Alex McClean (of Pumkin Studios &, later, Pivotal Games) that WZ source liberation was imminent.... over 100 bb posts of detailed approaches.

I preserved some of the highlights of that discussion in a wiki started that same year. I believe the insights still hold-up & make for at least thought provoking reading.

http://warzone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Exper ... Mechanisms

http://warzone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Exp._ ... _Section_2

http://warzone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Exp._ ... _Section_3

http://warzone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Exp._ ... _Section_4

http://warzone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Exp._ ... _Section_5

This discussion was also distinguished in that its participants included some of WZ's finest MP players, modders, mappers, coders, artists and a.i. scriptors. I mention that because I am probably one of few left (besides 4nE & Coyote) who knew these folks and all thier tangible accomplishments in the WZ community.

- Regards, RV.

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[aubergine]

@Rman: Wow, I didn't know about that wiki - lots of reading to do!

@Nameless - apologies for going off topic. But consider what would happen to the APM stats when commander/sensor droids start taking over basic tasks...

I still believe that commander driods should be dropped from the game. Sensor droids make much more sense. It could be that to start with sensor droids only provide targetting for base defences, and can't have units assigned to them. However, when command turret is researched, units can start being attached to sensor droids allowing sensor droid to take it's little group of assigned droids out in to the field to perform advanced manoeuvres. With more command turret upgrades, more units can be attached to sensors.

And I'm still keen on the idea of having the ability for choosing different AI components for sensor droids, that would affect their targeting decisions, movement choices, and so on. Sensor droid AIs could even determine the types of unit that can be assigned to a sensor. So you could have a specialised arty AI, or a VTOL AI, or cyborg AI... etc... that is tuned more to controlling certain types of unit.

And, also, the ability for sensor droids to call back to the CRC to request backup - eg. they see some strong defences ahead and need to call in air support...

[effigy]

IMO, sensor droids should only be allowed to lead a group of indirect fire droids. This would match sensor tower behavior.

Sensors and Commander turrets share basic functionality, but assigning factory production, returning from repair stations, and fire support are clear advantages. These features are designed to reduce micromanagement, I think.

"And, also, the ability for sensor droids to call back to the CRC to request backup - eg. they see some strong defences ahead and need to call in air support..." Wouldn't that make them more like commanders?

Unit experience is valued mostly to me in campaign, since it's easier to keep droids alive. Having usable commanders would surely change current MP dynamics.

[aubergine]

Perhaps what is needed is an extra tech item to combine a Wide Spectrum Sensor + Command Turret turret in to a Wide Spectrum Command Turret?

[Emdek]

I would like to have special commander like unit that commands only artillery like standard commander does with standard units (I really hate that artillery unassigns from commander when goes to repair).
But this discussion is kind of offtopic.

[Rman Virgil]

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Commanders, in their real potential, relate directly to "actions per minute" by way of what was pointed out by effigy - facilitating microing. (And also as effigy mentioned, MP dynamics would be impacted to the core. Expansively & for the better, IMO. How so will be clearer by the end of this post.)

But before I flesh that point out I wanna back track to something that is central to GPM design but hard to pin down because it's not quantifiable and it's refered to in the biz as "game feel".

The "game feel" here comes down to the players relationship to Commanders. How I have understood Pumpkin's goal is like so: Player = General in Theater and Commanders = Field Lieutenants with a certain defined autonomy within and under the General's command. That is a really important relationship that is not served by reducing them to enhanced sensors.

Now let me get back to the goal of using commanders to facilitate in theater microing.

In a phrase - complex maneuver. And how is that defined? The ability to coordinate at least 3 combat groups from multiple vectors and at varing velocities. (Flanking feints & gambits come to mind, among other interesting tacs that are hardly feasible currently.) To be able to do this effectively while microing the economy, research, design, build, controlled unit re-supply and combined arms groupings is where Commanders as Field Lieutenants to your General will realize thier full scope potential as originally envisioned by Pumpkin Studios.

The How to do specifics i've left for another occassion. (As in the proposed GCI aka "Global Command Interface", among other chestnuts.)

The evidence for Pumpkin's original vision for Commanders is in the source code and was also spoken to directly by Alex Lee, one of WZ's original developers on the Pumpkin Team, right here in this BB a couple years ago.

- Regards, RV.

EDIT: I just want to make it clear that I am speaking in terms of a Mod to the canonical, unfinished, 1999 WZ and that I am not trying to convince anyone here that this is the way to go - least of all the current devs. I'm merely sharing a PoV based on points already stated in evidence succinctly, as well the countless hours invested in mod experimentation over the years (& LAN club play with the changes) to test the viability of these related propositions. In other words, merely expounding brain farts is not my thing unless it be pure joking around.

There have been quite a few instances in gamedome over the last decade plus of a mod superceding in popularity the original game by a significant margin and I am sure this would be such an instance.

When the time is optimal, the binary dev in a ripe state for going forward, the proof will be in the pudding, as the old saw goes.

Persuasion to these propositions or PoV is not, I repeat, not my goal or motivation for posting all this.

Ultimately, it's about adjacent possible learning, as such can be a generative result of robust, spirited, discussion, from time to time, if the participants are up to it in totality and not just killing time in egoic tunnels.

Along with all the points raised in the referenced WZ wiki discussion of some 8 years ago there is nothing more to be added save for repetition, as I'm reading it.
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[Nameless]

But consider what would happen to the APM stats when commander/sensor droids start taking over basic tasks...

To me at least, this isn't really a problem because like the APM of the StarCraft kind; the APM count of WZ could or would be weighted against a time decay that would continuously affect the count -OR- we could simply average the count by the number of minutes surpassed with the understanding that as the game progresses your APM may take a hit.

I still believe that commander driods should be dropped from the game. Sensor droids make much more sense. It could be that to start with sensor droids only provide targetting for base defences, and can't have units assigned to them. However, when command turret is researched, units can start being attached to sensor droids allowing sensor droid to take it's little group of assigned droids out in to the field to perform advanced manoeuvres. With more command turret upgrades, more units can be attached to sensors.

Make sense

And I'm still keen on the idea of having the ability for choosing different AI components for sensor droids, that would affect their targeting decisions, movement choices, and so on. Sensor droid AIs could even determine the types of unit that can be assigned to a sensor. So you could have a specialised arty AI, or a VTOL AI, or cyborg AI... etc... that is tuned more to controlling certain types of unit.

Like an in-game option/mod or like an auto-select-enemy-unit-and-now-we'll-kill-anything-that-looks-like-it-from-now-on kind of thing?

And, also, the ability for sensor droids to call back to the CRC to request backup - eg. they see some strong defences ahead and need to call in air support...

To me that sounds like you're (just) wanting to have lesser micro control in favor of a more macro oriented game-play style and to me at least that would take away from the whole WZ experience.

[aubergine]

A good point about macro control. Agreed that automating stuff too much will detract from game.

Maybe instead of a commander calling back to the CRC for backup, it could message the player instead (eg. place a beacon where it needs help and play a voice message) then it's up to player as to what to do ?