nerf cyborg transports

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nerf cyborg transports

Post by Rommel » 30 Jan 2013, 14:39

I thought after all this time... so you have got to nerf these, I had a player come down to my base with like 30 or 40 of these, I had like 20 sunburst it did practically nothing, then he just set down in my base and my ripple rockets did his work for him. This is extremely ridiculous and need to be addressed.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by aubergine » 30 Jan 2013, 14:58

I think the weapons have been removed from them in 3.2, but that still won't solve people landing them in your base to get your arty to turn against you.

Also, in later mid-late game, once enemy has decent AA defences, transports become obsolete in terms of using them to transport units, as they just get shot out of the sky -- they don't even have a "retreat at X damage" option, and you can't exactly send them for repairs manually either.

So I'd like to see not only changes that prevent transports from being used as weapons, but also changes that make transports much more useful as a means of droid transportation even in mid-late game.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by Rommel » 30 Jan 2013, 15:37

aubergine wrote: So I'd like to see not only changes that prevent transports from being used as weapons, but also changes that make transports much more useful as a means of droid transportation even in mid-late game.
This is the problem, to do that they need to be tougher and at this time they seem to be tough enough, in fact from what I saw too tough even now - when they landed I was attacking them with units in my base and they were getting ripples rained down on them and it didn't take them out - it was like they have heavy bodies.

The main issue is massing them, why should you be able to build so many of them? Also do they really need to be so tough, it's not like in reality you have transports that will fly thru AA defense and be able to land in where they want - you have air strikes to take out the AA or missile or whatever). I feel the best thing would be reducing their hitpoints or make them more susceptible to AA attacks - just like any other vtol.. give them limited ammo as well.

Whatever the case something needs to be done, this is basically a cheat in multiplayer and can ruin a good game.


bTW I am curious to know what that is in your avatar... lol
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by aubergine » 30 Jan 2013, 17:44

Avatar: It's an EggPlant (aubergine), in an ornate egg cup.

IMHO if their HPs are reduced it will make them even more useless as transports. Maybe remove their weapon (this is already done in 3.2 branch IIRC) and make them cost more to build - so if someone does try making lots of them they'll run out of power for research and other tasks.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by Rman Virgil » 30 Jan 2013, 18:19

aubergine wrote:.......

IMHO if their HPs are reduced it will make them even more useless as transports. Maybe remove their weapon (this is already done in 3.2 branch IIRC) and make them cost more to build - so if someone does try making lots of them they'll run out of power for research and other tasks.
I believe that will work from my experiments in "War School": remove the weap & up the cost.

Have to understand that Pumpkin never properly balanced them because they were not part of the retail game or original WZ canon. Actually, they never even thought of 'em. It was a female fan by the name of Toricat who suggested it and we all got behind it and Pumpkin put them in around Patch v.1.6 iirc. From suggestion to implementation was maybe 3 weeks. :3
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by Jorzi » 30 Jan 2013, 19:25

I agree that we could do something like, for example, limit the number to 10. If the trucks are limited, then why not the transports?
On the other hand, I have found that, at least in NTW games, people who do this generally lose, since they can't prevent their own base from being destroyed.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by aubergine » 30 Jan 2013, 22:30

+1 for limiting number of transports -- when using them as transports should be used, it's unlikely anyone would want more than 5 of them.

JS API functions countDroid(), getDroidLimit() and setDroidLimit(), plus the C++ behind them, would need updating.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by Rman Virgil » 31 Jan 2013, 03:17

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Capping as per trucks was proposed in 2010 for Super Transport re-balance: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7068&hilit=super+transport+balance

So - what about the Super Transports ? Are they capped ? Like the Cyborg Transport they were not part of the original MP canon and thus never balanced for anything but use in Campaign Mode.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by aubergine » 31 Jan 2013, 08:02

Maybe we should create a bigger difference between cyborg transport and super transport?

I still wish Olrox's design was used for the cyborg transport:

Image

But maybe shrink it so it's more like 3x3 tiles. And reduce it so it can only carry 4 cyborgs (of any size). It could be the "Wasp" to Jorzi's B43 "Bumble Bee" transport.

My idea would be to reduce its HP in favour of increased speed and manoeuvrability, but also increase its cost a little. It would not have an inbuilt weapon, but instead would use the weapons on the borgs inside it -- so whatever borgs you put in it become it's turrets.

Thus, you end up with a low HP craft, that's quick and agile and has up to 4 weapons depending on its cargo. It would fly high enough to prevent flamer borgs from firing, but other weapon borgs such as MGs, mortar, etc., would work fine. Put a cyborg mechanic on board and you get early form of auto repair heh.

EDIT: Maybe 5th pod at the front could be retained but only able to take a repair/engineer borg? With an engineer borg on board, you've got VTOL construction capability, with repair borg you've got early auto-repair.

EDIT #2: Or, instead of 5th pod, allow it to have a systems turret put on it. This would prevent the auto-repair scenario, but with a repair turret it could be used as mobile repair facility instead. Or put a sensor on and use it as a scout.

However, it would still be highly susceptible to enemy AA -- you certainly wouldn't want to risk sending it in to an enemy base due to its low HP.

The super transport, on the other hand, would be a much more sturdy beast at the expense of speed, manoeuvrability and complete lack of weapons (it's cargo is packed deep inside and has no way to shoot at outside world).

The cap of 5 transports would apply to transports in general, not a specific type of transport. Much in the same way that the limit on trucks also includes cyborg engineers.

Maybe the super transport could be fitted with a sunburst array to give it some defence against air-attack?
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by Nameless » 31 Jan 2013, 11:45

Rommel wrote:I thought after all this time... so you have got to nerf these, I had a player come down to my base with like 30 or 40 of these, I had like 20 sunburst it did practically nothing, then he just set down in my base and my ripple rockets did his work for him. This is extremely ridiculous and need to be addressed.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by Rommel » 31 Jan 2013, 23:14

Great suggestions here, I really Aubergine's ideas.
Nameless wrote: Death Ball???
lol yep the dreaded "death ball", ugly strange evil thing that it is. The moment one of these appears at your base you might as well rage quit!
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by Rman Virgil » 01 Feb 2013, 00:19

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Aubergine, like those suggestions. :) Would add more fun depth to the game.

And Olrox's Transport is bad a$$. My favorite of 'em all. :3

Should send 'em this thread link, see what he thinks. May be into a little visual art break from his high fantasy novel.

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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by aubergine » 01 Feb 2013, 00:30

Well, I love 'em both. I have big plans for transports, it's time they started living up to their name.

Per's been doing his ninja stuff on the JS API recently - we now have a bunch of new transport-specific events, we can find out how much cargo space they have, how much is used, how much a droid will take up, list droids in cargo, etc. I have a hunch that 3.2 could breathe new life in to transports, especially if AIs start using them effectively. But I think they'll need some tweakage in the stats as mentioned above to really make them epic.

I think it might have been you who recounted an experience with either DyDo AI or Aivolution that used to use transports, where you'd get a shock and sense of foreboding when one suddenly appeared out of nowhere and you don't know what it's carrying or what it's going to do. I very much want to get that sort of sensation back in to skirmish games, and hopefully also have them used properly in MP games as well. From a logistics perspective, we only need one type of transport that's dedicated to moving troops around (the super transport) hence why I think the cyborg transport needs to be distinctly different in nature.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by Rman Virgil » 01 Feb 2013, 01:20

aubergine wrote:Well, I love 'em both. I have big plans for transports, it's time they started living up to their name.

Per's been doing his ninja stuff on the JS API recently - we now have a bunch of new transport-specific events, we can find out how much cargo space they have, how much is used, how much a droid will take up, list droids in cargo, etc. I have a hunch that 3.2 could breathe new life in to transports, especially if AIs start using them effectively. But I think they'll need some tweakage in the stats as mentioned above to really make them epic.

I think it might have been you who recounted an experience with either DyDo AI or Aivolution that used to use transports, where you'd get a shock and sense of foreboding when one suddenly appeared out of nowhere and you don't know what it's carrying or what it's going to do. I very much want to get that sort of sensation back in to skirmish games, and hopefully also have them used properly in MP games as well. From a logistics perspective, we only need one type of transport that's dedicated to moving troops around (the super transport) hence why I think the cyborg transport needs to be distinctly different in nature.
Yeah, that was me. It was Troman's first iteration of "Aivolution" for v.1.10c in 2004. And the perfect phrase for their appearance, I think, is Shock and Awe … Truely a mighty and epic experience for skirmish afficionados. :3

Been following Per's recent JS API transport specific events - exciting stuff for v.3.2, I agree. :)

I like the other transports too. But there's just something about Olrox's that grabs me especially.

Wartux also had an interesting idea that Olrox liked a lot too. He put it in the WZ Idea Torrent which is now dead so let me see if I can explain it properly.

Basically, it's implementing the Super Transport as it is in campaign, for MP. In your map-making designs you incorporate LZ placements much like how you decide where to put oil resources around the map to promote certain tac and strat gameplay oportunities. The Super Transports have to land at these LZ's. The main drawback is that there is no accounting for legacy maps and it would only be a new GPM for map designs going forward.
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Re: nerf cyborg transports

Post by aubergine » 01 Feb 2013, 01:43

Maybe both approaches could be mixed?

So, super-trans (ST from now on) can go anywhere like it currently can.

But, if there are LZs, the ST user interface could show quick links to send it to one of the LZs. Furthermore, droids could also be sent to LZs in similar way, just as you can send them to HQ or to repair. The benefit of an LZ is some level of automation of the transport (done via scripting of course). So you could send a droid to a recovery LZ and a transport will come and collect it and take it to a designated location, such as a repair facility.

If the user was then given the ability to build/demolish LZs, they could set up logistics infrastructure for their STs to reduce amount of micro required to use them. LZs would need to be in pairs to be fully effective, with a transport shipping droids between them.

Sending a droid to LZ would be like sending it to repair station, it will wait it's turn and when a transport with enough space arrives, it will embark the transport. The transport will then fly it to the other LZ, which might also be linked to a repair station or whatever. When the droid is repaired, a transport collects it and takes it back to first LZ so it can re-enter battle.

Would need much more thought, obviously, but maybe some interesting GPM in that direciton?
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