Ridiculously Fast Construction

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Stratadrake
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Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Stratadrake » 02 Oct 2012, 18:34

Perhaps there should be some kind of limit on how many trucks are allowed to chip in when building one structure.

You can't have multiple factories producing the same unit.
You can't have multiple labs researching the same topic.

And yet, an army of 3-5 trucks can build fortifications faster than email accumulates spam.

Is this a good thing? A bad thing? Somewhere inbetween? And maybe we could tweak and improve it regardless?

So here are a few ideas on this front:

1a - Fixed limit of trucks per construction target. Like no more than 3 (or 5?) trucks per structure under construction. You probably would not assign that many trucks to a single construction queue anyway, and if you're building a row of defenses you probably wouldn't be able to fit many trucks around them anyway.

1b - Alternately, a variable limit based on individual structure size and placement - i.e. how many trucks you can reasonably expect to fit around it. Larger structures can have more trucks chipping in, but other obstacles (defensive fortifications, cliff walls, etc.) might limit the amount of trucks you can dedicate to a given task. If you're placing an artillery pit in a remote cliff nook, you probably can only get 1-2 trucks nearby it anyway, whereas if you're placing a sensor in wide open spaces you could probably fit 8 trucks around it easily (though who needs eight trucks to build one tower?).

2 - When you have a build queue of multiple structures: Allow trucks to "skip" the current structure and move on to the next item in its build queue if it can't actually contribute to the current one - e.g. if the target is blocked (preferably by other trucks) or if it already has X number of trucks operating on it.

3 - This could also reduce the potential for truck jams (though you probably don't encounter much of those anyway). If you currently tell an army of 10 trucks to build a row of defenses in narrow terrain and then return, the first 5 or so trucks get their job done and are now butting heads against the other trucks who are still trying to reach the target site of their personal queues. Voila! Truckjam.

4 - Related to number two: If I have trucks in differing locations and I issue a common build queue to all of them, one thing that happens often is once one truck has finished construction and moves on to the next, the remaining trucks still have to go back and "check their work" - the truck arrives on site and attempts to start building, only to realize that that structure is done at which point it goes to the next item on the list and repeats. Why not make the trucks a little smarter than this? E.g. when a given structure's construction is finished, the game checks for any trucks who might have build queues targetting the same location and (if the queued item cannot actually be built there anymore) cancels the item, allowing that truck to move on to the next item in its queue. So if I have truck 1 building a row of walls on tiles A thru G, and truck 2 (with the same build queue) arrives on site when walls A thru D have been finished, instead of truck 2 attempting to build walls on tiles A thru D, it should skip ahead to tile E (which, presumably, truck 1 has already started work on). On the other hand, if truck 2's orders are to build a row of hardpoints instead of just walls, it will indeed start building hardpoints (because you can build hardpoints on existing walls).
Last edited by Stratadrake on 02 Oct 2012, 18:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Per » 02 Oct 2012, 18:50

If there is to be a limit on number of trucks to build simultaneously, the only limit that makes more sense than any other is 1. Any other limit will be arbitrary and artificial, but 1 will simplify a great deal of things, including the ability to make game progression more predictable for game balance.

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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Stratadrake » 02 Oct 2012, 18:54

On the other hand, being able to have multiple trucks chip in for faster construction has "always been there", even since original retail (personally I tended to send trucks out in groups of two or three, especially in the T3 campaign.) so eliminating it entirely would be a very obvious (and potentially very controversial) change in balance, whereas a limit of 2 or 3 would not be as noticeable (depending on how many trucks you typically assign to the same tasks). And the other tweaks, like cancelling built items from a truck's personal queue (point 4) so it doesn't waste time attempting to actually build them can still be applied regardless.
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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by iap » 02 Oct 2012, 23:43

I don't see any problem right now.
What can be done is make each additional tack be 75% effective then the last one, so there will be a point when it will become neglectable.

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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Terminator » 03 Oct 2012, 08:44

iap wrote:I don't see any problem right now.
What can be done is make each additional tack be 75% effective then the last one, so there will be a point when it will become neglectable.
Just what to make a point like this, but y have done it first :). I think even 50% efficiency of any next truck would be better. Cause one truck is a way low constructing speed, & some old funs may don't understand a changes like this....may be even 40% - may be fine, but however it would be , Public should test it.

I wish this kind of changes will make a bold line between players who turtle (defense focused) && rushers (army focused).

And again limiting, limiting, limiting I remember good old idea-feature "max units limit with Command relay center"(warcraft farms) that fit wz2100 very good in my opinion and change balance radically. :3
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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by zydonk » 03 Oct 2012, 11:34

Per wrote:If there is to be a limit on number of trucks to build simultaneously, the only limit that makes more sense than any other is 1. Any other limit will be arbitrary and artificial, but 1 will simplify a great deal of things, including the ability to make game progression more predictable for game balance.
Actually, there seems a de facto limit of 3 or so in the 3.1 releases, mainly because of the clumsy manoeuvring and positioning set up. You say elsewhere, Per, that the older system isn't coming back because it was horrendous in some way. At least it worked, while the present set up doesn't, nor is it likely to - given the dearth of proggers.

Loads of systems are kept going in the real world for the want of better. War, politics, economics - come to think of it, it looks as though everything in the world is kept going in its imperfect state for the want of the perfect.

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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Per » 03 Oct 2012, 13:22

zydonk... Nobody is going to take 2.3.9 away from you. You can keep playing it forever. We want to work on 3.1, as we will not work on something that is broken by design, it is simply not fun, and that is our choice. So please stop the incessant whining.

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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Stratadrake » 03 Oct 2012, 17:50

Actually, there seems a de facto limit of 3 or so in the 3.1 releases, mainly because of the clumsy manoeuvring and positioning set up.
That's my thoughts exactly - if we made 3 trucks per target an "official" limit then not many people would notice that. How many players dedicate 4 or more trucks to the same task anyway? Not as many as the number of players who dedicate two trucks.

Maybe it could also be made adjustable. "Structure Limits" screen could, say, include a truck that specifies not the number of trucks allowed total (no sense in doing that), but the number of trucks allowed per build target. Range 1 to 5 (like labs and factories), default value 3.
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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by zydonk » 04 Oct 2012, 12:11

Stratadrake wrote:
Actually, there seems a de facto limit of 3 or so in the 3.1 releases, mainly because of the clumsy manoeuvring and positioning set up.
That's my thoughts exactly - if we made 3 trucks per target an "official" limit then not many people would notice that. How many players dedicate 4 or more trucks to the same task anyway? Not as many as the number of players who dedicate two trucks.

Maybe it could also be made adjustable. "Structure Limits" screen could, say, include a truck that specifies not the number of trucks allowed total (no sense in doing that), but the number of trucks allowed per build target. Range 1 to 5 (like labs and factories), default value 3.
In most circs, two is about right, easy to manage etc (in 239, that is). Three and more in defensive situations - surprise attacks, esp vtol, or rapid upgrading of weapons. Basically, I think the present scheme should remain. There is a tendency over time to tighten the options available. It would be better for people to learn how to respond to and exploit new tactics/situations rather than immediately looking for a "rebalance".
Per wrote:zydonk... Nobody is going to take 2.3.9 away from you. You can keep playing it forever. We want to work on 3.1, as we will not work on something that is broken by design, it is simply not fun, and that is our choice. So please stop the incessant whining.
Oh dear. Fun. Sorry, Per, forgot about the hobby aspect.

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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Avestron » 04 Oct 2012, 22:24

Why not limit it in another fashion? Invoke the rule of diminishing returns.

+100% - - - 1st Truck
+080% - - - 2nd Truck
+060% - - - 3rd Truck
+040% - - - 4th Truck
+020% - - - 5th Truck and up

-

5 Trucks would do the same work that 3 currently do. 10 Trucks would do the job that 4 currently do.
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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by NoQ » 05 Oct 2012, 08:39

Agreed with Avestron, this will diversify strategies much more than both limiting to 1 and not limiting at all. The values should be different though, probably, for this to have effect in early game (probably second truck +50% or something like that).

We also should consider the possibility of having trucks with different construction speeds around (which can be done in mods). Probably sum up build points and divide them by a square root of truck count?

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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Iluvalar » 05 Oct 2012, 22:13

Mush more simpler, i suggest changing the truck construction speed from 8 to 6
and give 2 bonus construction point whenever a truck is building.
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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Stratadrake » 06 Oct 2012, 23:45

How exactly does that work? Construction speed is handled on a per-truck basis, remember (two-truck team = 8 + 8 = 16 construction speed).
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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Reg312 » 06 Oct 2012, 23:47

i dont see reasons why construction speed should be nerfed.
It is warzone and its is OK :)

i can suggest to make trucks slower, so you will see better to spread them in different directions :)

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Re: Ridiculously Fast Construction

Post by Iluvalar » 07 Oct 2012, 00:11

Stratadrake wrote:How exactly does that work? Construction speed is handled on a per-truck basis, remember (two-truck team = 8 + 8 = 16 construction speed).
1 truck = 6 + 2 = 8 (normal 8 per trucks)
2 trucks = 6*2 + 2 = 14 (slower 7 per trucks)
3 trucks = 6*3 + 2 = 20 (even slower 6.66 per trucks)

Each new trucks produce a bit less proportionaly. Just as they ask, but a bonus for the first truck is much more simpler to explain.
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