Pintle weapons

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!
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Pintle weapons

Post by HEXUS » 12 Aug 2010, 06:03

I had this idea earlier. Even the modern M1 Abrams has a pintle mounted .50 on the turret, doesn't it? Which got me thinking. The problem with the tanks in this game is they have no support weapons. I've often built a group of tanks with the biggest honking guns I have at that time, only to have them wrecked by a bunch of cyborgs with Scourge roflhaxxorxrockets. Which get's me thinking; why not be able to mount small pintle support weapons, by body type:
Small: No pintle weapon
Medium: 1 Pintle weapon space
Large: 2 Pintle weapon spaces
Super-large (Wyvern and Dragon): 3 Pintle weapon spaces.
Pintle weapons are small weapons, like a small machinegun (not the ones mounted on vehicles as primary weapons) or a small RPG.

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Roux Le Corps » 12 Aug 2010, 07:17

so... assault cannon s. (support) machine gun cobra halftracks?
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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Ubermad » 12 Aug 2010, 18:10

a small machinegun mounted on top of the gun or in the front in the body would give the heavy tank some limited defense against cyborgs. if it would be mounted on top i could shoot at VTOLs... :hmm:

this could be something and i like it :)
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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by HEXUS » 13 Aug 2010, 21:41

That's something I noticed about the game, none of the vehicles have support weapons. Even modern day vehicles have support weapons.

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Verin » 13 Aug 2010, 22:54

I think this is a bad idea, this would make cyborgs almost useless. A balance issue is what this would create.
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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Assault Gunner » 14 Aug 2010, 00:37

Very much of one. And it would make Dragon bodies: Uber-OP. Seriously. 4 pintle guns?
"There is no greater Void than the one between your ears." - Void Ray, StarCraft 2.
Especially the Void between the ears of people who think that No VTOL is a good idea, and won't lead to arty wars. I've won one, and I have to say: I hated it.

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Verin » 14 Aug 2010, 02:53

1 on a dragon body is ok i guess
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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Assault Gunner » 14 Aug 2010, 20:56

Dragon bodies carry 2 weapons. You can choose to place 2 weapons of your choice on it. Of course, the optimum weapons depend on what your opponent sends at you.
"There is no greater Void than the one between your ears." - Void Ray, StarCraft 2.
Especially the Void between the ears of people who think that No VTOL is a good idea, and won't lead to arty wars. I've won one, and I have to say: I hated it.

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by franek12354 » 15 Aug 2010, 12:06

Verin wrote:I think this is a bad idea, this would make cyborgs almost useless. A balance issue is what this would create.
This is right and small pintle weapons are bad because it will chance warzone 2100 in tank war
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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Assault Gunner » 15 Aug 2010, 15:11

Yes, it would. MGs are an AP-type weapon, which means that they do 140% damage to enemy cyborgs. Or, for every ten damage, they do an extra four. On a MG, that adds up fast, especially considering damage upgrades, now that there are two tiers of damage upgrades for MG bullets not counting Hardened Case MG bullets. This means, however, that a MG without any upgrades does 14 damage per second to a Cyborg if it has 10 armor. I think. A twin MG does ~19.25 DPS to cyborgs at 10 armor, assuming no damage upgrades. With + 20% damage each time, damage goes up fast.
"There is no greater Void than the one between your ears." - Void Ray, StarCraft 2.
Especially the Void between the ears of people who think that No VTOL is a good idea, and won't lead to arty wars. I've won one, and I have to say: I hated it.

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Kacen » 20 Aug 2010, 02:06

The problem is unless you want it to look ugly you're going to have to limit and/or create special models for said "pintle" weapons.

Limit it to what type of turret you have in the first place (imagine a pintle weapon on any missile weapon).

Perhaps it should be limited to all-rounders, AKA, "Tank Turrets"?

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Assault Gunner » 20 Aug 2010, 03:19

Works pretty well to me. Um, you are including railguns in your "Tank Turrets", right?

We definitely cannot put MG-type pintle weapons on rockets. That would make WZ Rocket Wars, as far as tanks go.
"There is no greater Void than the one between your ears." - Void Ray, StarCraft 2.
Especially the Void between the ears of people who think that No VTOL is a good idea, and won't lead to arty wars. I've won one, and I have to say: I hated it.

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by 3drts » 21 Aug 2010, 18:05

Already been done, tested, and removed.

Well previously, you could add a second turret to any heavy body.

Twin Pulse laser mantis tanks were massed to awesome effect.

I also at that time did mostly lancers + twin MG, but mixed in some lancer+ bunker buster for assault on enemy AIs.

I edited the files, such that for campaign I could put 2 weapons on medium and heavy bodies.
I did limit myself to using only mg/twin MG on the cobra, and for a while just mg or twin mg on the python.

Heavy cannon + mg (not HMG) python tracks looked rather nice.
The mg weight didn't affect speed much at all- twin heavy would be uber slow, and considering the body points, and that weapons are the major cost of a tank, you were better off making 2 python HCs.

mgs didn't affect speed, only added 10 power to the tank cost, and added 50 hp.

On that Alpha mission where you need to get the artifact before the NP escapes via transport, I had medium cannon+ mg python tracks..... and there were two scav bases... badass, a few of my pythons cleared that place out, the mgs took care of the scav infantry and light vehi, the cannons took out the structures.
The 2nd weapon always seemed to fire at whatever enemy was closest to the tank.

I tried similarly adding an MG to my artillery tanks, but I soon found with the unit cap (and knowing about the beginning and end of Beta- where I could only take 40 units with me, so I limited myself to 40 units, also tried to get more highly experienced units rather than more units with mediocre experience), that I prefferred just mounting two artillery pieces on my tanks.
Twin mortars weren't so bad.... Twin howitzers, twin ground shakers, groundshaker+ ripples... slow as shitte
Twin Hellstorms.... awesome artillery support unit, for those transport missions where you want to pack more firepower per load...

But anyway.... its easy to add a 2nd weapon hardpoint, and if you only use MG or TwinMG, it looks pretty decent (as did light cannon and HPV cannon)

but restricting what weapons can go on the 2nd hardpoint isn't so easy, deciding what to restrict them to, isn't so easy.
Balancing it, isn't so easy.


BTW, the M1 Abrams has a mg that points the same direction as the main gun.
Some versions also have another 50 caliber MG that the tank commander controls, on some versions it is on a powered mount that the commander can fire without sticking his body outside the hatch.
Additionally, some versions have another 30 cal MG for the loader crewman, with a "gun shield" to provide some protection when that crewman is outside the hatch.
Further, with the TUSK upgrade *another* 50 cal machinegun, on a powered mount, can be mounted, bringing the Abrams armament up to: 1x 120mm smoothbore cannon (capable of firing a variety of shells, sabot, shot, and missiles), 2x remote controlled 50 cal machineguns, 1x 30 cal machine gun on a coaxial mount with the main gun, 1x 30 cal machinegun operated by a semi-exposed loader.
Thats 1 cannon, and 4 machineguns!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams# ... y_armament

On top of that, the crew often stores carbines in the turret, and in some cases shoulder fired AT missiles incase they have to dismount from the tank.

I'm sure if they operated without air superiority, they'd have at least a stinger missile launcher mounted on top as well, or else a way for a crew member to get one from inside the turret, and fire with his body sticking halfway out the hatch.

Those things are mobile fortresses, and if you don't have a good number of ground attack aircraft, or a tank equally capable, you don't stand a chance.
- note, 1 on 1, even with stinger missiles, you'd expect a helo or aircraft to win - the problem is when that tank has friends nearby who are then alerted and bring their missiles to bear, particularly that tank crew that was just sitting there with an inactive tank that wasn't showing up on IR

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by Kacen » 23 Aug 2010, 11:13

Assault Gunner wrote:Works pretty well to me. Um, you are including railguns in your "Tank Turrets", right?

We definitely cannot put MG-type pintle weapons on rockets. That would make WZ Rocket Wars, as far as tanks go.
Yeah I am, they count as all-rounders, and become the new "tank turrets" at T3.

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Re: Pintle weapons

Post by 3drts » 24 Aug 2010, 13:17

I was thinking.... people almost never use collective bodies online....
(ive seen some tiger artillery tanks on high oil maps that degenerated into ripple and ground shaker wars (I think VTOL was off)

What if we by default gave all collective bodies a 2nd, weak, weapon.
As in: Leopard by default has a (not changeable) mg as a 2ndary weapon.
Panther by default has a mg as a 2ndary weapon.
Tiger by default, has a twin MG secondary weapon.

The people might actually bother to research and use them (while others note they are clearly inferior to other bodies: the leopard costs about as much as a scorpion medium body, and is weaker and slower, same for panther/Mantis, and the Tiger, while it does have advantages over the non nexus bodies, is just plain slow, takes a lot of tech to get, and given the cost, not competitive with Nexus bodies even on a cost basis)

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