super unit

[Michal]

There is only a real solution to maps with more than 10 oil within each players' bases:

Delete them.

I agree, and sign this up with my hands and both feet .

I played on highpower 'fly' map. Designed so that vtols are only use, no cyborgs (so couldn't use transport to build something closer to enemies). Map was huge (I think too big for archangel to fire across, but I haven't tried).
I played with 2 'weaker' players, 2vs me. They were turtling - 20 HEAP Cobras needed to take down 3 AA sites.

After an hour they launched their 'final' strike, with plasmite bombers. Because I had some Whirlwind and VTOL Bug lancer patrolling (and also few Scourges ) a HUGE wave of plasmite bombers only managed to destroy 3 factories, comm center VTOL factory and resarch lab. I still had trucks ofc, other derrics, LOT of power (40k++) so it was... no use.
Host quit. It was a booooooring game. I was resarching LasSat to zap them a bit - my only hope I think.... But they got bored before that.

[psychopompos]

could there be a way to adapt the lassat to have emp effect on defenses that are side by side?

say some turtle puts up 3 rows of scourge towers that are 10 towers long, you could then emp the lot while making a hole in the lines at the same time.
or knock out rows of arty emplacements for a minute or two.

this would mean that unless they left holes for tanks in their defences, the lassat could disable all the defences on one side of their base.

[Olrox]

could there be a way to adapt the lassat to have emp effect on defenses that are side by side?

say some turtle puts up 3 rows of scourge towers that are 10 towers long, you could then emp the lot while making a hole in the lines at the same time.
or knock out rows of arty emplacements for a minute or two.

this would mean that unless they left holes for tanks in their defences, the lassat could disable all the defences on one side of their base.

EMP effect by using Laser?
Sounds weird.
I think that wouldn't help because there aren't any other structures inside the base that'll make the other defenses stop working (like in C&C). And probably there'll be many units inside the base as well.

~Olrox

[new paradigm leader]

well how about replacing the lassat with the nuke? after all the sattelites had a nuclear payload and nukes would cause an EMP

[Olrox]

well how about replacing the lassat with the nuke? after all the sattelites had a nuclear payload and nukes would cause an EMP

Those don't have nuclear missiles anymore, I think
they were sort of "unloaded" into the earth already

~Olrox

[Assault Gunner]

Yeah, agreed. The only practical solution to a turtle is to hit them with massive force and create a break in their defensive wall.

[psychopompos]

EMP effect by using Laser?
Sounds weird.
I think that wouldn't help because there aren't any other structures inside the base that'll make the other defenses stop working (like in C&C). And probably there'll be many units inside the base as well.

~Olrox

the term laser is used for soo many distinct weapons its rediculous.
beam weapons as your massive damage systems(what sci-fi lasers really are)
particle weapons
plasma weapons
ion weapons
laser weapons(actual)

of which, the ion cannon would have emp by default. pure optical lasers would still be complete sh1te & plasma possibly unstable.

but the way i was thinking for implementation isnt to knock out power generation ala c&c, but have the effect transmitted to any consecutive building to those that are actually hit by the lassat. beaning the turtle would have to space defenses in places to prevent getting them all disabled and due to being spread out, the focused firepower wouldn't be there to prevent attacks penetrating the now less dense defences.

[Olrox]

the term laser is used for soo many distinct weapons its rediculous.
beam weapons as your massive damage systems(what sci-fi lasers really are)
particle weapons
plasma weapons
ion weapons
laser weapons(actual)

of which, the ion cannon would have emp by default. pure optical lasers would still be complete sh1te & plasma possibly unstable.

but the way i was thinking for implementation isnt to knock out power generation ala c&c, but have the effect transmitted to any consecutive building to those that are actually hit by the lassat. beaning the turtle would have to space defenses in places to prevent getting them all disabled and due to being spread out, the focused firepower wouldn't be there to prevent attacks penetrating the now less dense defences.

Yeah, but that doesn't have to do with what I meant with the issue of having no deactivating effect for a specific structures (as power plants have in C&C).

Problem is, you have the EMP hypotetically. You use that against the defenses, and breach the defences. You are going inside the base, or send your VTOLs. Unless the EMP effect is very long, you won't have the time to destroy pretty much anything before the deactivated structures get back on-line - probably your units will then be stuck inside the enemy base when the defenses come back.

If we had a deactivating structure like power plants are in C&C, you could rush to destroy the plants while the EMP is under effect, effectively crippling all the defenses. But we don't have that, and all defenses got the energy to run from itselves, what makes them defeatable only by destruction.

Other than that, the chain effect you've propposed is probably very hard to implement.

Again, if the enemy was able to turtle so badly, there's a problem either with the player or with the map. Problems with the player are corrected by failing and learning from those experiences, usually. Problems with the map are corrected using flaME and a brain, or deletion.

~Olrox

[psychopompos]

Yeah, but that doesn't have to do with what I meant with the issue of having no deactivating effect for a specific structures (as power plants have in C&C).

orca spam was an issue there

Problem is, you have the EMP hypotetically. You use that against the defenses, and breach the defences. You are going inside the base, or send your VTOLs. Unless the EMP effect is very long, you won't have the time to destroy pretty much anything before the deactivated structures get back on-line - probably your units will then be stuck inside the enemy base when the defenses come back.

the problem with a turtle is cracking its shell.
what i suggested would do this.
well timed lassat strike to disable a bunch of defences, kill the defences while they are offline

If we had a deactivating structure like power plants are in C&C, you could rush to destroy the plants while the EMP is under effect, effectively crippling all the defenses. But we don't have that, and all defenses got the energy to run from itselves, what makes them defeatable only by destruction.

orca spam.
thats whay in some C&C games your aircraft number in limiten by the number of LZs
WZs vtol - counter vtol is bollocks when you deal with vtol spam.

Other than that, the chain effect you've propposed is probably very hard to implement.

possibly, but i doubt itd be as hard as many other issues

Again, if the enemy was able to turtle so badly, there's a problem either with the player or with the map. Problems with the player are corrected by failing and learning from those experiences, usually. Problems with the map are corrected using flaME and a brain, or deletion.

a determined turtle will turtle unless you have finite resources to draw them out.
the longer the match the better the shell will get.

[Olrox]

well timed lassat strike to disable a bunch of defences, kill the defences while they are offline

Good luck with 3 layers of fully-upgraded missile fortresses. How much time are we talking about? 5 minutes offline? :-S
I still don't know why you've mentioned the "orca spam" anyway.

Again, maps can be made so that turtling is really hard. If the guys' good at turtling, that's too bad for anyone playing against him, but if the map is properly made, it's not likely he'll be successful, probably he's going to be overpowered shortly after he stopped scouting for oil.

I think that the EMP effect will be hard to implement and by that, I mean it's too controversial and difficult for just implementing and testing that on a beta, for example. IMO, it won't be effective.

~Olrox

[psychopompos]

Good luck with 3 layers of fully-upgraded missile fortresses. How much time are we talking about? 5 minutes offline? :-S

that would take a hellofa long time to build... and i cant say its something a have seen.
still, with them unable to fire they would be nice easy targets, and would cost the one loosing them alot of time and resources.
and there is bound to be a more effective way to do that.

I still don't know why you've mentioned the "orca spam" anyway.

easy, orca spam used to destroy the power plants then everything was either offline or too slow.
defences where then left as standing targets
itd be the same as vtol spaming in wz and with the same effect of shafting the gameplay.

Again, maps can be made so that turtling is really hard. If the guys' good at turtling, that's too bad for anyone playing against him, but if the map is properly made, it's not likely he'll be successful, probably he's going to be overpowered shortly after he stopped scouting for oil.

which leaves your high resource maps out of the game frequently.

I think that the EMP effect will be hard to implement and by that, I mean it's too controversial and difficult for just implementing and testing that on a beta, for example. IMO, it won't be effective.

~Olrox

its a solution to a problem that works within the warzone dynamic and fits the story presented much better then nukes.

[Olrox]

which leaves your high resource maps out of the game frequently.

I can't feel sorry for that.

I'll be more direct and say that I simply don't like the idea - it's a solution to a problem that can already be avoided by far easier manners. I don't think that the devs are willing to do that, then probably that's now a modding proposal. If I'm right, your only hope is to wait for some good-willing modder, or do it yourself.

~Olrox

[Assault Gunner]

Good luck with 3 layers of fully-upgraded missile fortresses. How much time are we talking about? 5 minutes offline? :-S

that would take a hellofa long time to build... and i cant say its something a have seen.

Done it. Plus, forts are rarely a turtle's only defenses. He probably has Scourge towers, etc. I know that when I build a defensive setup for my base, I place scourge turrets behind fortresses, and let their range shred everything weak, and the forts rip apart the tough units.