Cyclone/Whirlwind

[3drts]

Why doesn't whirldwind obsolete Cyclone now?
They have the same cost: $150
They both have splash radius of 0.5
Whirlwind has higher ROF and higher damage (direct and splash).
It is simply better than cyclone in every catagory, for the same cost?

I think cyclone and whirlwind should be differentiated: one is supposedly quad 80mm (cyclone), one is supposedly quad 30mm (though it looks like twin 4-barrel gatling guns).
So why not give Cyclone a higher damage(direct hit, and splash) than Whirlwind, but a lower ROF, and increase its splash radius to 1.0 instead of 0.5?
As it is now, WW should replace cyclone, not hurricane: Hurricane may be worse, but at least it is cheaper.
Cyclone currently is just a weaker version of WW, at the same price, there is no possible reason you would want to use it over WW.

[Olrox]

I think cyclone and whirlwind should be differentiated: one is supposedly quad 80mm (cyclone), one is supposedly quad 30mm (though it looks like twin 4-barrel gatling guns).

Twin quad-barreled 30mm rotary guns, I think.

So why not give Cyclone a higher damage(direct hit, and splash) than Whirlwind, but a lower ROF, and increase its splash radius to 1.0 instead of 0.5?

I Agree, there should be a similar relation than Howitzer>Ground Shaker>Hellstorm, or Whirlwind should make Cyclone obsolete.

Given the values you brought forth, obviously. If those aren't accurate, I can't guarantee my opinion

~Olrox

[Zarel]

New Cyclone:

• Damage: 100s (splash: 100, 2 tiles)
  ROF: 60
  
  Prereqs: AA HE Flak Mk1, Hyper Velocity Cannon

New Whirlwind:

• Prereqs: AA HE Flak Mk2, Assault Gun

Gives people even more of a reason to use cannons.

yes/no?

[Saberuneko]

True.

[Olrox]

New Cyclone:

• Damage: 100s (splash: 100, 2 tiles)
  ROF: 60
  
  Prereqs: AA HE Flak Mk1, Hyper Velocity Cannon

New Whirlwind:

• Prereqs: AA HE Flak Mk2, Assault Gun

Gives people even more of a reason to use cannons.

yes/no?

Yeah, I think it's worth trying. That also makes for some group-fighting VTOL AA gun idea (Anti-aircraft artillery was the name, I guess)

~Olrox

[PkK]

New Cyclone:

• Damage: 100s (splash: 100, 2 tiles)
  ROF: 60
  
  Prereqs: AA HE Flak Mk1, Hyper Velocity Cannon

New Whirlwind:

• Prereqs: AA HE Flak Mk2, Assault Gun

Gives people even more of a reason to use cannons.

yes/no?

I'm not sure about Hyper Velocity Cannon as a prerequesite. While wz2100 lives in the future we might want to look at the past: In WWII anti-air gun muzzle velocities seem to be comparable to tank muzzle velocities.

I agree that we need a stronger AA weapon in the cannon path (in air defense power you're even further behind the missile path than in artillery range).

I think the Re-tooling Air defense thread viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3182 has balanced and well-though out proposals about anti-air rebalancing that should be considered and discussed before making the change, too.

Philipp

[PkK]

New Cyclone:

• Damage: 100s (splash: 100, 2 tiles)
  ROF: 60
  
  Prereqs: AA HE Flak Mk1, Hyper Velocity Cannon

New Whirlwind:

• Prereqs: AA HE Flak Mk2, Assault Gun

Gives people even more of a reason to use cannons.

yes/no?

If the Cyclone is the high-damage AAA and Whirlwind is the high rate of fire the prerequesites from within the AA path (ignoring the other ones for now) should be more like:

Cyclone prereq:
AA HE Flak Mk2 (as it is now)

Whirlwind prereq:
AA Ammunition Hopper Mk2 (seems to make more sense to me than requiring a damage upgrade)

Philipp

[Zarel]

I'm not sure about Hyper Velocity Cannon as a prerequesite. While wz2100 lives in the future we might want to look at the past: In WWII anti-air gun muzzle velocities seem to be comparable to tank muzzle velocities.

It's not about velocity, it's because Hyper Velocity Cannon is the only cannon that can hit air units.

If the Cyclone is the high-damage AAA and Whirlwind is the high rate of fire the prerequesites from within the AA path (ignoring the other ones for now) should be more like:

Cyclone prereq:
AA HE Flak Mk2 (as it is now)

Whirlwind prereq:
AA Ammunition Hopper Mk2 (seems to make more sense to me than requiring a damage upgrade)

Whirlwind has increased damage over Hurricane, as well as increased ROF.

[Olrox]

I'm not sure about Hyper Velocity Cannon as a prerequesite. While wz2100 lives in the future we might want to look at the past: In WWII anti-air gun muzzle velocities seem to be comparable to tank muzzle velocities.

It's not about velocity, it's because Hyper Velocity Cannon is the only cannon that can hit air units.

And Hyper velocity cannon is also a regular cannon despite its name (substitutes light and medium cannon, doesn't it?), from the same Tech level as cyclone. If we are going to get fussy about names, it'll be a long path ahead (don't mention railguns please).

If the Cyclone is the high-damage AAA and Whirlwind is the high rate of fire the prerequesites from within the AA path (ignoring the other ones for now) should be more like:

Cyclone prereq:
AA HE Flak Mk2 (as it is now)

Whirlwind prereq:
AA Ammunition Hopper Mk2 (seems to make more sense to me than requiring a damage upgrade)

Whirlwind has increased damage over Hurricane, as well as increased ROF.

Perhaps making Whirlwind a little bit more expensive would make sense. Just a little bit, like, from 150 do 175 (Since it's overall more powerful).

What do you think?

~Olrox

[Zarel]

Perhaps making Whirlwind a little bit more expensive would make sense. Just a little bit, like, from 150 do 175 (Since it's overall more powerful).

Works for me.

[3drts]

I'm not sure about Hyper Velocity Cannon as a prerequesite. While wz2100 lives in the future we might want to look at the past: In WWII anti-air gun muzzle velocities seem to be comparable to tank muzzle velocities.

I agree that we need a stronger AA weapon in the cannon path (in air defense power you're even further behind the missile path than in artillery range).

Actually, as I was playing through alpha and beta campaign the first time, it felt a lot like WWII (even down to the panther and tiger tank names, lol).

76mm cannons = WW2 allied tank caliber
120mm cannon = modern tank caliber.
88mm HPV = german tank caliber
50 cal machine guns (the M2 machine gun was in use in WWII, still is in use today)
30 cal machine guns.
80mm flak.
105mm howitzers...
Beta campaign had WW2 class weapons.
Only the gatling assault gun and assault cannon dont fit well with WWII

In WWII, they started fielding "hyper velocity cannons", such as the german 88mm tank gun (note, in game, the HPV is 88mm). The upgunned shermans used high velocity cannons, back then, they defined anything over 3,000 fps as hyper velocity.
All tank cannons today are hyper velocity cannons. (M1 Abrams main gun fires a shell at 5,000 fps

http://books.google.com/books?id=HCcDAA ... q=&f=false

[Mats]

yes/no?

Yes!

making Whirlwind a little bit more expensive would make sense. Just a little bit, like, from 150 do 175

Makes sense.

[Tenoh]

Yes,this should be interesting.

[Michal]

I don't really have much idea how 'numbers' effect battle performance, but:
If Cyclone had better splash, it could be used against groups of Vtols, to damage them (and increase rearm time by repair time) and Whirlwind could be a weapon to take Vtols down, one by one.
If it can be done that way, using both Cyclone and Whirlwind could be useful - one would counter the bad sides of the other.

[PkK]

If the Cyclone is the high-damage AAA and Whirlwind is the high rate of fire the prerequesites from within the AA path (ignoring the other ones for now) should be more like:

Cyclone prereq:
AA HE Flak Mk2 (as it is now)

Whirlwind prereq:
AA Ammunition Hopper Mk2 (seems to make more sense to me than requiring a damage upgrade)

Whirlwind has increased damage over Hurricane, as well as increased ROF.

Nevertheless the firing speed seems to be the more prominent one.
Maybe more important, requiring an upgrade from a different AA-improvement path (ROF improvements instead of damage improvements) makes the research tree more interesting.

Thus IMO it still would be better to have Whirlwind depend on an ROF upgrade instead of a damage upgrade.

Philipp