Game Developers: Trucks, Trucks, and more Trucks

[dragonflythecat]

However, 2.3 Beta 9 was a nice release to see. Played the entire Campaign in all three difficulty levels and tested 200 skirmish maps without too much trouble but that 'however' really doesn't let you off the hook just yet - you're simply on parole for now.

It seems that you fellows are having a real problem getting a handle on problems relating to trucks, even as good as this release was, the Trucks still have the same problems, as every other beta release.

Do you have information available to explain the many aspects of Truck Behavior and how that Behavior relates to the game?

I am rather curious why trucks can't build a Missile Fortress any faster than a truck even if I am cheating and I have 100,000 of unlimited power to draw from - shouldn't fifteen trucks be able to build a Missile Fortress fifteen times faster than one truck?

I notice that this is not the case -

Is there built in limitations in our Trucks and the way in which they build?

For instance: If there was such a limitation would it be explained in this manner:

Fifteen Trucks can build fifteen items faster than Fifteen Trucks can build one item?

Or do they simply build at the same rate regardless?

I noticed in Beta 9 that my trucks behave differently while under attack - they refuse commands and sit there and get slaughtered. Have that happen to you a few times and see whether or not it is enjoyable.

They stand still and don't respond to commands, even if you right click on them and use the panel to try to unstick them. I notice besides using the panel I can't sometimes dislodge them if I command that Truck to either build or recycle some item close to the Truck's proximity.

Or there is that one where the trucks get caught on terrain, like on Little Egypt and get caught in a loop and then there is my all time favorite: building on the sides of cliffs and getting caught behind the item The truck was building.

It seems to me that there has been an incremental change with each of your beta release in how trucks behave or refuse to behave.

What I really don't understand is if this was deliberate, why are not all Trucks infected, by this behavior or maybe I just have the question wrong? These are all just insects? Should I go and get a can of RAID?

I'm beginning to think that this has some connection to those balancing changes you sometimes question 'testers' about when it is convenient for you. Let me just head your comments off at the Pass - I have had this conversation with Zarel in a previous post - but I choose to be polite that day so I didn't swat him.

I am not a nice person, I don't play well with others

Zarel, my deepest apologies but you make this too damn easy – Balancing Changes?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4434

Rebalance planning
By Zarel » 09 Jan 2010, 07:46

Re: Rebalance planning
By dmkp » 09 Jan 2010, 07:54

Re: Rebalance planning
By stiv » 09 Jan 2010, 08:10

Re: Rebalance planning
By 13KukYNexus666 » 09 Jan 2010, 08:13

Re: Rebalance planning
By Dylan Hsu » 09 Jan 2010, 08:15

Re: Rebalance planning
By Mysteryem » 09 Jan 2010, 08:31

Re: Rebalance planning
By Deus Siddis » 10 Jan 2010, 18:43

Re: Rebalance planning
By Tenoh » 15 Jan 2010, 11:37

Re: Rebalance planning
By Terminator » 15 Jan 2010, 14:21

Re: Rebalance planning
By Daltx » 15 Jan 2010, 17:13

Re: Rebalance planning
By DFStormbringer » 15 Jan 2010, 19:57

Re: Rebalance planning
By TVR » 17 Jan 2010, 21:06

You spoke to these eleven individuals.

Does anyone out here on the Forum think I don’t seriously research these questions before I ask them?

You know SourceForge? They have statistics pertaining to the number of people who recently downloaded Warzone 2100 2.3 Beta 8 – Linux users 172, Mac users 13, and Windows users 1,296 = 1,481 current players and you made changes based upon the conversations of eleven people – most of which didn’t agree with your changes – if I read the post correctly.

Cruel, aren't I?

[Zarel]

that 'however' really doesn't let you off the hook just yet - you're simply on parole for now.

A strange attitude to have towards a development team who works for free. We appreciate your approval nonetheless.

You spoke to these eleven individuals.

Does anyone out here on the Forum think I don’t seriously research these questions before I ask them?

I don't understand what your point is.

I spoke to several people, some on IRC, some over IM, some on the forums. The overwhelming majority agreed with the changes.

Out of the eleven people you mention:

- stiv, Deus Siddis asked for clarification. I assume from their lack of objections that they have no objections.

- KukY, Dylan, Mysteryem, DFStormbringer, dmkp agreed with the majority of changes.

- Tenoh, Terminator asked for more changes. I assume from their lack of objections that they have no objection to the proposed changes.

- Daltx, TVR disagreed with one of the proposed changes.

Now, this is fairly standard for a rebalance thread. Objections are heard (I decided against replacing the heavy laser emplacement with a hardpoint), and what we end up with is something I believe most people can agree with.

As I said in another thread, rebalance threads are really the places where the phrase "You can't please everyone" becomes the most apt - everyone has different ideas, and I consider all of them, and we try to come to some sort of compromise. In addition, the purpose of balancing is the make the game more fair - not directly something that can be solved with a popularity contest.

I also note that you did not post in the rebalance thread, yourself. Why not, if you had objections?

You know SourceForge? They have statistics pertaining to the number of people who recently downloaded Warzone 2100 2.3 Beta 8 – Linux users 172, Mac users 13, and Windows users 1,296 = 1,481 current players and you made changes based upon the conversations of eleven people – most of which didn’t agree with your changes – if I read the post correctly.

Are you seriously arguing that I should get feedback from a significant proportion of the 1500 or so people who downloaded beta 8? I don't really think that's necessary.

[Dylan Hsu]

If there are problems, you should have made a bug ticket and gotten it fixed that way instead of bitching after the fact.

[Saberuneko]

They stand still and don't respond to commands, even if you right click on them and use the panel to try to unstick them. I notice besides using the panel I can't sometimes dislodge them if I command that Truck to either build or recycle some item close to the Truck's proximity.

That happened with me, with trucks and with tanks too, I just solved it opening that "right-click" panel and clicking "hold position" move it to a next square and click the previous option, the unit moves again. ^^

What I don't know, is why do some units get stuck like that.

By other side... Dragonflythecat, Some of your talking is very harsh...

[Michal]

Can somebody explain the 'building part', Im really curious how to build faster...

[Berg]

Use more trucks per structure it builds faster
highlight maybe 3 trucks then goto build menu and click on a building and place it then all three trucks will buld it

[Michal]

Ok, say I want to place 15 lancer hardpoints in a line, on a high-power map, using 5 trucks. Should I select all trucks, use a mouse gesture and place a lancer-line, or start building in 5 places, using one truck per 3-hardpoint line? Which would be faster? (If one's faster). Lets simplify - time used to move trucks doesn't matter.

Would it be any different if those were Tank Killer/Scourge hardpoints which are more expensive?

[lav_coyote25]

take your 5 trucks - place the hardpoint where you want....and drag to produce your line of hardpoint wall... careful of going against cliff tiles... or you may inadvertently get a truck or 2 stuck in place... you will eventually see this... i am sure.


now - take 0ne truck per hardpoint and see if there is any difference in the time it takes...

i usually take the 5 together if and when i have good power supply...

[dragonflythecat]

There are times when dealing with children that can be fun, this isn't one of them.

Whenever I post to this forum it isn't to report known bugs because I don't arrive until a week after the new Beta version has been released - allowing all you other fellows to be ahead of me to report all those bugs I know you found. I then come in and spend a couple of hours reading your posts before I write anything.

Harsh? You haven't seen it yet Saberuneko

Well, Game Developers, you are doing a much better job of explaining your positions. But some of you like Charlie Brown haven't quite got a handle on it yet. Did anyone remember to tell him that his dog called? Reach over there and ask Charlie why he keeps avoiding my questions?

Remember the question was about Trucks? I don't believe that we got a straight answer on the topic. If anything it seems that any questions pertaining to Trucks is Taboo and the current Game Developer Team is afraid of Truck questions and problems arising from Trucks and Tanks.

Do you have information available to explain the many aspects of Truck Behavior and how that Behavior relates to the game?

Is there built in limitations in our Trucks and the way in which they build?

Fifteen Trucks can build fifteen items faster than Fifteen Trucks can build one item?

You did notice how fast Zarel changed the subject to "Re-balancing", didn't you?

But as usual with children, they often miss the point, being children.

Zarel, you missed the point entirely. In your referencing post, it showed that 'discussing re-balancing changes' was not properly advertised. I only found out about it after reading a different post in which that 'referencing post' was quoted.

Did you notify all the Beta Testers that there would be a set period in which the new re-balancing changes would be discussed on the forum in a specific location? Did you do that Zarel?

If you really want our help you have to meet us halfway.

"A strange attitude to have towards a development team who works for free." WHINER!

You can't actually believe that Beta Testers aren't spending as much of their free time on this game as the Game Developers, are. Only a fool would think like that, I think.

"I spoke to several people, some on IRC, some over IM, some on the forums."

If you had gone to a proper college they would have taught you that when you write, you need to qualify your writings. In the original post that references this post that information was not available - it should have been - it would have given the reader a different perspective on your efforts. This lesson has two sides to it - by bringing this information to the discussion now could show...

"The overwhelming majority agreed with the changes."

Yeah? Qualify "overwhelming majority" for us. Exactly how many real people was that? Out of what? Fourteen hundred and eighty-one Beta Testers? I am kind of curious what you think that means: overwhelming majority?

"Are you seriously arguing that I should get feedback from a significant proportion of the 1500 or so people who downloaded beta 8? I don't really think that's necessary."

That's no secret to the rest of us.

Dylan Hsu writes: "If there are problems, you should have made a bug ticket and gotten it fixed that way instead of bitching after the fact."

Saberuneko want to see what Harsh really looks like? Here is a preview...

Son, I don't know where you have been since Beta Four but I've bought these truck problems to the fore for the last couple of months - you should read some of my other posts before you comment - what is like to live under a rock?

If you think I am blowing this out of portion - I probably am. It's just a lesson not a crime. But it is not like the rest of you reading this are off the hook. Let me explain a little secret to you about submitting your posts. Always write your post first in a word processor like Microsoft Word - correct your grammar and spelling errors first, and then paste to the actual forum page. Everyone will think you are a well-written individual.

Dragonflythecat

[KukY]

I don't know for others, but to me looks that dragonflythecat has gone insane...
Don't ask me why...

[Olrox]

I don't know for others, but to me looks that dragonflythecat has gone insane...
Don't ask me why...

For me he's always been kind of stupid, and surely has gone insane recently.

If you are so frustrated with the (excellent IMO) job that the staff is doing for free, but yet, in a skillful manner, why the hell don't you assemble a team and go making your own projects? I mean, pointing your finger at these guys and telling that they're deceiving and dumb, without having done anything good is undeniably senseless and the idea is ridiculous by itself because you wouldn't possibly be able to play 1.13 or anything like that.

So much has already been done, in a way so good that you can't possibly be serious by having this kind of attitude. You also don't know these guys irl, and you seem to ignore they have such real lifes. And yet, they are fixing countless bugs everyday for us, and trying to improve the balance, and mantaining the forums, and doing many other things - for us as well.

Please think twice or thrice or even a hundred times if you still aren't able to get the picture. Before being arrogant like that. It is at least plain stupid for someone who joined last month. :-S

[Olrox]

Does anyone out here on the Forum think I don’t seriously research these questions before I ask them?

I've missed this little bit, and would like to comment.
Nice to see such a talented person in copying and pasting post info.

You can research whatever you want, but you won't be taken seriously if you don't stop whining and aren't insightful. You are prolix and boring IMO.

[KukY]

An old stupid man that sits all day long, plays chess with others of his kind, get's himself informed through newspapers, and criticises everyone and everything, but he is much more worse then things he criticises. In newer times there are updated versions of these that switch chess with computer games and newspapers with Internet.

[Olrox]

An old stupid man that sits all day long, plays chess with others of his kind, get's himself informed through newspapers, and criticises everyone and everything, but he is much more worse then things he criticises. In newer times there are updated versions of these that switch chess with computer games and newspapers with Internet.

Heh, sure thing. Also note that those last are "Updated", but not "Upgraded". Meh, I'll leave this topic to the flies. If it doesn't drown into oblivion, at least I'll have done my part.
BTW, Help/Troubleshooting?

[Zarel]

Remember the question was about Trucks? I don't believe that we got a straight answer on the topic. If anything it seems that any questions pertaining to Trucks is Taboo and the current Game Developer Team is afraid of Truck questions and problems arising from Trucks and Tanks.

I did not answer that question because I know very little about truck code. To my knowledge, the truck code hasn't been modified recently.

Do you have information available to explain the many aspects of Truck Behavior and how that Behavior relates to the game?

Yes, it is available here:

SVN: trunk/src/action.c
SVN: trunk/src/order.c
SVN: trunk/src/display.c
SVN: trunk/src/droid.c
SVN: trunk/src/structure.c

Is there built in limitations in our Trucks and the way in which they build?

You are limited to 15 constructor units - you cannot construct any more once you have 15.

I do not know about any other limitation, but I cannot guarantee that they do not exist.

Fifteen Trucks can build fifteen items faster than Fifteen Trucks can build one item?

I'm afraid I don't understand your question.

In English, questions usually start with a questioning-pronoun like "who", "what", "when", "where", "why", or "how" (possibly preceded by a preposition); a linking verb like "is" or "are"; or an auxiliary verb like "can", "will", "should", or "must". While it's possible to construct a sentence that doesn't start with one of these words, the way your question is currently phrased is difficult for me to understand.

Are you asking if fifteen trucks can currently build fifteen items faster than they can build one item? Assuming they're the same item, probably not.

You did notice how fast Zarel changed the subject to "Re-balancing", didn't you?

Replying to something mentioned in your post generally isn't considered changing the subject.

Zarel, you missed the point entirely. In your referencing post, it showed that 'discussing re-balancing changes' was not properly advertised. I only found out about it after reading a different post in which that 'referencing post' was quoted.

I made a thread in the General Development forum. If you have other suggestions for advertising a rebalance thread, I would be happy to hear them.

Did you notify all the Beta Testers that there would be a set period in which the new re-balancing changes would be discussed on the forum in a specific location? Did you do that Zarel?

No, I did not, because that is not true.

The new rebalance changes may be discussed anywhere, although if one wants me to respond, one should discuss in either the forums, mailing list, IRC channel when I am present, or an e-mail or forum PM to me. You can feel free to discuss them in this thread, for instance, if you so wished.

If you really want our help you have to meet us halfway.

I believe that is precisely what I am doing.

You can't actually believe that Beta Testers aren't spending as much of their free time on this game as the Game Developers, are. Only a fool would think like that, I think.

And yet, neither the beta testers nor the developers have your attitude.

Yeah? Qualify "overwhelming majority" for us. Exactly how many real people was that? Out of what? Fourteen hundred and eighty-one Beta Testers? I am kind of curious what you think that means: overwhelming majority?

I've asked around twenty people (in private), which is enough to do limited extrapolation. I mean that I estimate, if you were to actually ask those fourteen hundred beta testers, the overwhelming majority would also agree with the changes. Why don't you do so? By "overwhelming majority" I mean greater than 80%.

The reason I do not poll is because I see no reason to do so, since balancing is not, and should never be a popularity contest.

Let me explain a little secret to you about submitting your posts. Always write your post first in a word processor like Microsoft Word - correct your grammar and spelling errors first, and then paste to the actual forum page. Everyone will think you are a well-written individual.

KukY writes: "I don't know for others, but to me looks that dragonflythecat has gone insane..."
Olrox writes: "For me [dragonflythecat]'s always been kind of stupid, and surely has gone insane recently."

I suppose either "everyone" or "well-written individual" was a typo?