Whole game rebalance?

[Solitaire]

satellite is useless because it takes forever to get from research...

Not in a T3 game it ain't...

all dropship/naval units need multi-targeting ai i think,it's a bit silly that a massive dropship/battleship has only one weapon/engage one target at 1 time...

Dead right, although it's not a *huge* priority in its own right ATM (get multitargeting working for "regular" units and the framework should be there for the big stuff anyway...)

weapon weight is weird,cannon is heavier than missile...huge weapons on small bodies problems can be solved by comparing the engineoutput(which is currently unused) of a body in body.txt with the weapon weight.

I tend to put the weapons in certain weight categories but only as a rough guide. And IIRC that above isn't a good fix because output depends a lot more on body faction than actual size/class :-\ I was thinking of set demarcations between weapon 'classes' - not getting rid of the weights or anything but using them as an indicator of weapon size grade. If we matched this grade against body output we'd probably have something like Python/Mantis being restricted to Flamers while Leopards and Retaliations were going around with Plasma and Gauss Cannons >:( ... well probably a *slight* exaggeration but you get what I mean... plus certain propulsions would also have their own guns but weapon grade would still depend on body size - take the Panzer; not compatible with light bodies, on a medium body you'd have a micro weapon on each side, on a heavy body it'd be a light weapon on each side, Christ knows what it'd be on an Assault body (either two mediums or two lights AND two micros... not sure which is more interesting-yet-still-balanced)

imo mg's are too good vs buildings,a fortified structure shouldnt get destroyed by a few mg bullet in less than 1 sec...

Agreed. The Heavy Machinegun (HMG) is basically a Browning .5cal/12.7mm MG; I'm not 100% sure what ammo types are available in RL but I'm pretty sure that even solid rounds can REALLY mess up stuff, even concrete, due to a combination of size and velocity (and fire rate!). MG, on the other hand, is a glorified 7.62mm GPMG, the cyborg variant a freakin' AK47. I don't see those tearing up reinforced concrete bunkers single-handed everyday... So pushing back high structure damage until the HMG appears is both more realistic AND helps balance by dropping first-minute rush potential (you'd have all those Viper MG or Twin MG Wheels staggering into a base full of Bunkers with Twin MGs or HMGs; right now it's an instant win for the 1337sp34ker, one tweak later it's bye bye rush and boy has that moron just wasted all their time and resource units! ;D )

they are already much better than 2.0.5rc1 now due to the projectile 'hit' system change(no more DICE based hits,so small cyborgs are much harder to hit now)

Great! Just gotta make sure MGs and napalm still work If the new cyborg schema is implemented we can have even more fun; heavies can shrug off light-arms and napalm and are more resistant to the odd AT hit but concentrated mini-pod (or successor thereof) /pulse laser/arty fire is gonna cream them; lights can dodge even stuff like HMG/Rotary MG and Pulse but are real vulnerable to napalm and weapons designed to kill them e.g. Assault Gun, Sniper Rifle, Flashlight/Javelin and multipurpose flaks

the special abilities sound like something can only happen a fps game...

Altmode switching has been in RTS since Dark Reign and was practically the core concept of Ground Control 2; 'special attacks' really came later but has been important in Ground Control, Spellforce, LotR and DoW/WA/DA. Its implementing the stuff that's the interesting bit ::) Would be modders' galore if we had code and shell/GUI support for such things though, would make WZ very attractive to tinkerers like us

not sure about what kind of bonus propulsions should give.

Not exactly 'bonus'; more of a modifier. Certain bodies and propulsions tweak the standard armor allocations for better or worse depending on what kind of action it was originally intended, siege/shock units punch up the frontal damage resistance to crazy levels but are open even to small-arms from the rear (slow monsters like Collective bodies); cavalry and skirmishers have a balance of armor that makes them less solid than average frontally but with resistance almost as good as their front on their rear, allowing for hasty withdrawals and more aggressive combat maneuvers as they can take a beating on the sides and rear as well (tactical speed-oriented stuff like Paradigm and Nexus bodies) A few propulsions (small naval units in particular) might have a better rear armor allocation than their side armor...

And that last thingy Watermelon was kinda a way to allow defenses to get tougher just like mobile units gain experience; just an interesting idea...

[Watermelon]

I think most of those features should go to a mod,since there is always ppl who wants zero changes to original wz gameplay style...

[ratarf]

I think that will become one of the largest issues... "do we change the gameplay of the original game or put everything in a mod?"

[themousemaster]

Or (if possibe, of course), into several mods, with which one can activate / deactivate whatever options one wants prior to starting a game.

[ratarf]

I think different mods will be the final solution, in the end.

[Watermelon]

I think I'll try to make a realistic/action-orientated mod with the helps of others(pie's,scripts etc) after making the multi-targeting 'actions' to work at acceptable level.

[DevUrandom]

MY favourite is still the shiny new WZ, and the gnarly old one in a mod for our oldschool guys.
If you won't put your modifications into the maingame but only as a mod, I can't do anything against it, though.

[Watermelon]

MY favourite is still the shiny new WZ, and the gnarly old one in a mod for our oldschool guys.
If you won't put your modifications into the maingame but only as a mod, I can't do anything against it, though.

My idea is to add new features to maingame(since most of them are not possible without source changes),these new features will be off by default and they can be enabled/disabled by specified data field in txt files.Actually you can disable the multi-turret by changing the 'weaponSlot' field of bodies info in body.txt to 1.

[JorgeAldo]

I want a HMG + Lancer Tank for the 1st campaign

Edit:

Imagine a Tank with HMG, Lancer and Heavy Cannon... The whole 1st campaign will be piece of cake...

[lav_coyote25]

well - no, it wont be... cause for every weapon enabled / tweaked - the same has to be done for the other combatants to keep the balance - balanced.... so to speak... ;D

[technojunkie]

I didn't read this whole thread so I apologise if this has already been touched on. Somebody had mentioned that T1 AA was too weak, and t2/3 was far too strong. I agree to a small point that they could be ratched up/down respectively. But What I think would be good for VTOLS would be to increase the power/capacity of the weapon based on the body used. Light bodies woulf be fairly effective vs. vehicles, med/heavy bombers would pack the punch to knock out structures. the higher tech the body the more punch it can pack, the heavier the body the more ammo it carries.

[themousemaster]

I want a HMG + Lancer Tank for the 1st campaign

Edit:

Imagine a Tank with HMG, Lancer and Heavy Cannon... The whole 1st campaign will be piece of cake...

I'd have to doubt it.  The problem is, if we can now use a HC/Lancer/HMG tank, so can the New Paradigm (or anyone else for that matter).

So it still be even playing field

[bormoth]

I have some suggestions.
For bodies maybe make light bodies faster then heavy but heavy bodies should have less speed penalty for heavy weapons then light one's.
like it works for VTOL with light body speed 700 vtol with heavy body spead 500,while in other propulshions
light cannon light armor truck has the same speed as light cannon heavy truck.
So light bodies may evade some arty fire and can be good weapon to destroy low rate of fire armies with hit and run strategy;

May be make various bonuses for weapons ws various armor types.

May be make add dragon and wyvern class armor ability to transfer damage from other ally units on themselves
so they can be used for tanking.

May be add some critical hits for weapon so ballance will look like:
  MG  :high rate of fire(more tends to hit)
  TMG:two shots so twice rate to score critical hit
  HMG:high damage

[Watermelon]

I have some suggestions.
For bodies maybe make light bodies faster then heavy but heavy bodies should have less speed penalty for heavy weapons then light one's.
like it works for VTOL with light body speed 700 vtol with heavy body spead 500,while in other propulshions
light cannon light armor truck has the same speed as light cannon heavy truck.
So light bodies may evade some arty fire and can be good weapon to destroy low rate of fire armies with hit and run strategy;

the current speed formula is calculated from total weight(body weight+weapon weight+propulsion weight),let us know if you can come up with a better speed formula.(available properties:weight,engine power,propulsion max speed),e.g:
mynewformula = [weight]/[enginepower] * [propulsion max speed]

btw projectile evade is already implemented in development version(svn trunk)

May be make various bonuses for weapons ws various armor types.

May be make add dragon and wyvern class armor ability to transfer damage from other ally units on themselves
so they can be used for tanking.

May be add some critical hits for weapon so ballance will look like:
  MG  :high rate of fire(more tends to hit)
  TMG:two shots so twice rate to score critical hit
  HMG:high damage

weapons already do bonus damage to different armor/propulsion types,but some of bonus/penalty are either too big or too small...

all late game bodies need improvements indeed,I am not sure how to balance them properly though.

I dont see the point of linking them with lesser units with lesser bodies,cos firepower matters more than anything else.Another problem is you have the exactly same amount of firepower with a tiny body as you have with a super capital one,since all bodies have access to all weapons.

mg's are very good without critical hit.

btw TMG just fires a projectile with a picture that look like 2 bullets(actually it's one projectile)

[Kamaze]

One general word by me, to game balance:

Game balancing is a very fragile thing, and i think we shouldn't touch it yet.
At least until 2.1 is out and the game gets more frequently played on multiplayer,
so that we can work with some more feedback.