Whole game rebalance?

[themousemaster]

If you actually manage to get a definition of "balance" written down, game designers everywhere will pay you millions for it ;p.

[DevUrandom]

I don't think anyone is shooting here. It's just a very active discussion.

But in this case I think balance means to me that every unit has some purpose for it's particular task. If the unit can't be effectively used, because it is too "weak" in some way, then it is imbalanced...

[Watermelon]

first - we should define the term balancing.

it seems to me that when ever the community starts saying things like balance etc... it invariably ends up in a shooting war.

so - balance of weaponry/tech  =  (insert definition here and thats what we go by).

ok??

I think both need to be revamped.

weaponry:
some are too good,while some are completely underpowered or useless.
e.g:
good:lancer class weapons,MC,HC
useless:minirocket pod,LC,some early needle/laser weapons

tech:
one research item shouldnt unlock all weapons

[themousemaster]

I can place a suggestion following watermelon's post...

You state that some early needle / laser weapons are useless (because the point at which you finally get them, everyone has major armor upgrades, I'm assuming).

Would one way of making them "more useful" be to simply place the start of their research earlier on the tech tree?  Don't change their strength any, just make them available when their power would be effective?

Or is changing the tech tree a monumentous challenge?

[Watermelon]

I can place a suggestion following watermelon's post...

You state that some early needle / laser weapons are useless (because the point at which you finally get them, everyone has major armor upgrades, I'm assuming).

Would one way of making them "more useful" be to simply place the start of their research earlier on the tech tree?  Don't change their strength any, just make them available when their power would be effective?

Or is changing the tech tree a monumentous challenge?

I gave flame/laser/needle the ability to penetrate several enemies(only units),hope it will make them more useful...

I dont know how to change the tech tree,maybe it's not very hard for someone who knows. 

[Troman]

I gave flame/laser/needle the ability to penetrate several enemies(only units),hope it will make them more useful...

I can understand flamers penetrating more that one object, but why laser and a needle gun?

[Watermelon]

I can understand flamers penetrating more that one object, but why laser and a needle gun?

I think a hardened dart can penetrate objects too,for laser I am unsure,I gave the ability to penetrate to these 3 weapons types simply because they are too weak.

flame = melee range little hp bonus
needle = no damage long reload time
laser = takes forever to get and does little damage

[Troman]

I think a hardened dart can penetrate objects too,for laser I am unsure,I gave the ability to penetrate to these 3 weapons types simply because they are too weak.

flame = melee range little hp bonus
needle = no damage long reload time
laser = takes forever to get and does little damage

Does that mean all laser/pulse laser/heavy laser, needlegun/railgun/gauss ammo will be flying through hardpoints and droids?

[DevUrandom]

Not hardpoints. Just droids.

[Watermelon]

Does that mean all laser/pulse laser/heavy laser, needlegun/railgun/gauss ammo will be flying through hardpoints and droids?

only units,currently it gives all weapons with weaponSubclass WSC_FLAME,WSC_GAUSS,WSC_LASER the ability to penetrate target,I think I'll move it to weapon.txt.

[lav_coyote25]

this has been so far the best discussion on rebalancing ever.  ;D

[Solitaire]

Long post!!

IMHO...

[General]

- We need better differentiation of roles. Adding some more variables to play (read on...) and then distributing their values across the existing units in a fairly logical manner will make different units important for different situations.

- I'll be killed for this, but... Why don't we have resource entropy in this game? Not just static decay to limit mid/late-game turtling but also dynamic decay, i.e. the more units/buildings you have, the slower you acquire resource... Its not a fix-all solution by any means but it WILL make people think twice about no-strategy rushes/swarms. Again, a system to differentiate the combat value of different unit types is needed (maybe leave major base buildings out) to determine what constitutes a rush... but still IMHO there is FAR too much emphasis on light-unit swarming which needs to be addressed!

- Multiple weapon hardpoints on a single unit. This is an oldie (we've been arguing about this since I joined this community, what? Four or five years ago? ::) ) AFAIK watermelon has been working hard at this, but I'm not an advocate for spamming this ability - I want it, but only in a balanced manner, i.e. only REALLY big units (heavy cyborgs, assault vehicles, Fortress!) can equip more than one weapon on their body by default, most of this ability IMHO should be linked more to propulsions (and propulsion-body combos - body class effects the weight capacity of ALL weapon slots) e.g. Panzer (kinda like Tracks but with different emphasis) can mount a micro weapon on each side on medium tanks, or a small weapon on each side on heavy tanks. A heavy gunship would be packing both a (medium) chin turret AND a (heavy) dorsal turret (unlike VTOLs!) and would have some sidepod weapons (typically rockets/missiles or light bombs) to boot. Now all we have to do is sort the above out, make it compatible with the new weapon classification system, and somehow get it ALL working with the AI... ::)

- New unit type: Satellites! Equipped with a variety of super-weapons and built and launched by a facility replacing the LasSat Control Facility. Of course, there would be strict limitations in term of numbers of units that can be deployed (adjustable pre-game) and they would be horrendously expensive and have monumentally slow reload, but they can carry a wide variety of payloads - spysat clears a defined area from shroud, EMP disables a whole region, microwave reduces enemy accuracy and view range across a wide radius for a duration, and a few purely destructive weapons as well for either precision strikes or total region bombardment to weaken an enemy (anyone who played Syndicate Wars would drool at the chance for WZ to have its very own Satellite Rain! ) IMHO having a building that clears the entire shroud permanently is a little cheap...

- If we did the former we'd need some anti-satellite missile silos to counter this threat wouldn't we?

- In fact if we eventually add naval scenarios (not for a long time yet!) we'll need to think about adding mega-size units such as (proper) dropships, amphibious landers and carriers. THOSE will be a challenge... enormous size and the same properties as a half a freakin' base in the latter instance. Ground Control 2-style dropships would be 1337 though... good for a rebalanced campaign as well...

- Has anyone thought of hacking out and replacing large sections of the GUI code? Because it needs a spruce-up anyway and while it would be a big task I've heard devs complaining that the existing stuff is a nightmare to alter which could be a big problem as time goes on if we (or third-party modders) want to add/change lots of GUI components... might be actually quicker in the long run if we hacked out the rot at this early stage and cultivated fresh new growth...


[Weapons]

- (I'm going to get hit for saying this yet again! ) We URGENTLY need to rebalance weapon weights and use it as a limitation to stop tiny units staggering around the place carrying Gauss Cannons, Hellstorms etc. This would repair many balance problems very quickly and lays down the groundwork for many of my future concepts

- We need the ability to model projectile collisions so even if that Groundshaker round misses its target, its gonna cause a BIG explosion, with screenshake (dependent on camera distance from impact) and everything in a big radius taking a beating! Or a full salvo from that AssGun peeing bullets all over the shop and that unfortunate cyborg column taking it up the rear because any stray bullets missing their targets will probably be eating their nearby mates AFAIK watermelon was working on this aspect but we'll have to consider carefully exactly what kind of tracking we'll actually want on artillery...

- Weapon-based Special Attacks! Research-based and needing a (very) long recharge or Resource usage (or both), or a kind of 'mode-switch' to enable an alternate attacking style. Examples of the former include spysats that can 'ping' the map, revealing the entire map for a short time (long recharge), and a kind of very powerful Groundshaker shell that made a nice big hole in anything it hit (and the surrounding countryside... well, in RL Russia does have small-caliber fission shells it can deploy via field artillery) (long recharge AND costs money). Examples of the latter includes using the Incendiary Howitzer to toggle with Airburst shells that disperses lower damage (plus all that napalm/persistent damage!) over a wider area with a slower refire (in theory it could hit Gunships as well owing to their low altitude) and the EMP Cannon Satellite to fire a beam that shuts down base operations for a short duration over a wide area (rather than the more concentrated conventional attack)

- I also wanna rebalance and add lots of weapons (I'll stick suggestions in another thread) to add diversity (key when taken along with the new unit/propulsion ideas). A particular emphasis is to make sure no weapon is 100% useless (i.e. always outclassed by something else of equivalent tech in an equivalent setting for equivalent usage) and mess about with range ratings a good bit. ATM we have too much of a jump from 1024/1152 to 1536 at the start of T3 and too much of a 1536 to 2048 jump in mid T3.

- MGs: I have ideas for fleshing this tree out a bit, but IMHO MG and TMG both need to be even further cut in the anti-tank and anti-structure roles, possibly a slight decrease in the effect of the first two or three dmgups as well, as seeing them slice through half-tracks and reinforced hardcrete is potty. IMHO the road to HMG should be long and stony and only then should the carnage REALLY commence... give some buildup time and reduce those stupid early-rush instagib wins AKA 'Death By 1337sp34k0r'

- Cannon: Again I have ideas for it including bringing back a slightly toned down Siege Cannon (it'll require mortar techs as well though...) Now with multiple weapons at least the Light Cannon (LCan) isn't totally useless anymore! *cough*T1subweapon*cough*

- Flak: Some wacky ideas here, including a Grenade branch (which also relies on Mortar techs) for ground use, some flaks that can hit ground and air units (the bigger ones will be hilarious. And damn expensive!) and a wider spread in general to cover a wider mix of airborne annoyances (turn the Whirlwind into a high-penetration death machine to nail those Gunships!)

- Arty: Don't want to fiddle with Mortars that much, except they are prerequisites for certain explosive-shell weapons (heavy/siege cannons, grenade launchers). IMHO howies need a penetration hike as they're really antitank as well as anti-everything-else. Their power will be countered by the fact that they're not great at precision bombardment - they're rather messy unless you use certain propulsions to counter recoil. But anyway, you'll only be able to add these to larger units generally and the structure that acts as a base for their emplacements needs to be much tougher... and MUCH more expensive. I don't think anyone will be able to afford too many of them after all that... They'll still be fun with the addition of splash damage...

- Explodies: whether from the Rocket or Missile tech tree, these weapons should be split into the following groups:
a) RUM: Rapid Unguided Munitions. Long salvos with short reloads, good against vehicles and gunships, medium against hardcrete and heavy cyborgs. ATM we only have the Mini-Pod; I see this needing a bit more development with heavier T2 models having good efficacy against armor (almost like a slow AT MG!) and some small units for cyborgs.
b) HMRL: Heavy Multiple Rocket Launcher. Semi-ballistic models good at extreme-range AT/anti-structure fire but not so hot vs. hardcrete and cannot target cyborgs. Both this and the next type can be launched from afar by Bomber VTOLs as well as terrestrial solutions. Example: Ripple, Archie
c) SMRL: Swarm Multiple Rocket Launcher. Fire few large missiles great distances that dump a large number of small homing munitions in the target area that do their own thing. These micro-missiles CAN target cyborgs and gunships as well as standard ground targets, but are not so hot against the heaviest units. Example: renovated Angel? Note: The old MRL and any new versions we add actually fire the submunitions straight off the bat thus their small size and relatively short range.
d) SSM: Surface-to-Surface Missiles. Lancer, Tank Killa and Scourge are the AT versions; Bunker Buster and Devastator are the anti-structure versions. The first group should have standard homing capabilities, both should have splash damage and can NOT target cyborgs or air units. Cyborgs can still suffer some minor damage if they get nailed by the splash
e) VLM: Variable-Launch Missiles. Two-stage rounds that can hit both air and ground targets, bigger splash than the above group. Cannot target cyborgs and many speed-oriented Strike VTOL designs can outrun the slow but accurate homing mechanism. They work well against medium units as they fly over them and attack the weakly armored top and rear areas. Also good alongside SAMs for gangbanging gunships and heavier bombers that get too cheeky.
f) SAM: well, guess. Fires *very* fast agile rounds that have a wide damage radius. Can now only fly for around 2-3 times their lock-on range before they're outta gas and detonate, but they should under almost all normal circumstances catch up to and pwn their target long before that. They should be the weapon of choice against Strike and smaller Bomber VTOLs.
This gives a wide variety of weapon solutions while specializing them a bit more. Many areas of their trees still need fleshing out IMHO, if only to delay the onset of Scourge (I have other ides for THAT weapon... )

- IMHO Flamers and Lasers should fire an actual 'beam' that inflicts damage for as long as its held on the target. Also, lasers should fall victim to attenuation - losing damage as distance increases. I think the Pulse Laser should be recognized for short, sharp pulses with good penetration and low attenuation while the Heavy Laser should fire a very long duration beam with horrible attenuation (deadly within 512, okay up to 1024, weak-assed at 1536 and pretty useless at its new theoretical maximum of 2048).


[Buildings]

- Some kind of Design screen for defenses and adding point-defenses to base structures would be another big improvement, voila! A million superfluous research topics and buildings off the list instantly so any time taken going through an additional menu to add guns is still better than going through 12 menu screens looking for that specific emplacement... Plus no more arguments over the lack of a Reinforced Pulse Laser Heavy Bunker ;D Of course each building type would have a specific limitation on what types and sizes of weapon it could accommodate...

- They need to be somewhat more durable, ESPECIALLY at the beginning to make early rushing somewhat useless unless you include some Flamers, Mortars etc. No more TMG instant death rushes! In the long term, maybe Hardcrete reinforcement as an add-on for base structures (costs money and ties up a truck but makes base buildings survive longer)? Also it would give more call for bringing Flamers, Bunker Busters and Mortars along with your tank column/cyborg squad.

- New production buildings that are tougher, bigger, better and more expandable than their normal counterparts but are more expensive and have their own harsh limit caps imposed. Main reason? Advanced units (heavy cyborgs, advanced propulsions, assault-class vehicles etc.) can ONLY be produced in these buildings (it would be possible to reload Gunships on a regular VTOL pad but sooo slow...)

- Maybe some system of limiting WHERE you can build structures to a certain radius around derricks, HQ etc. Not too sure if this one is very applicable in WZ though...

- Did we ever address the old dummying problem? Stick a cap (could be hardwired) to limit the no. of simultaneous construction projects you have underway to stop people beginning 20 fortresses and leaving them unfinished to block off everything for no money. Also, maybe buildings should start with less than full BP? I'm thinking 40-50%

- Oh, and some kind of Synaptic Link-themed building that could allow defenses in an area to accrue experience for kills and become stronger over time would be greatly appreciated!


[Cyborgs]

- Again, design screen! Split them into different types like with vehicles and build from there! Also adds the possibility of adding researched special items/equipment to them

- We had a whopping ONE body until the later patches, where it was doubled! To TWO! Let's take the poor things seriously and give them 3 body classes and different stat/weapon layouts per faction...
a) Light Cyborgs - Carry the lightest weapons, are very weak but very cheap and can be used for rush tactics. They are the most stealthy units (non-commanders suffer major penalties detecting them while they are not firing) and have some unique tactical equipment - repair units optimized for use on light/medium cyborgs, sniper rifles etc.
b) Medium Cyborgs - Same as we have now. Only the overall way in which WZ deals with cyborgs needs all these other changes anyway so they will become a much more important tool in waging war! They typically carry light weapons, but somewhat more optimized than those of vehicles/buildings
c) Heavy Cyborgs - A bit like the big guys we have ATM only far more tactically diverse. Sure they're smaller than a light vehicle but their armor and firepower is more like that of a medium tank! And they're somewhat harder to hit, stealthier (not by much!) and have completely different defense attributes to medium tanks. But they're slow and hard to transport (heavy vehicles adapted as carriers can't transport them - too big!) They tend to carry multiple weapons - the Project Boa for example can carry a full-blown medium weapon in place of its right arm AND certain light or modified medium weapons over its shoulder (typically missiles or very light arty) making it a very deadly unit. They cannot be researched without the Advanced Synaptic Link research (mid/late T2), can only be built in a Prime Cyborg Factory (not a normal one) and cost major moolah compared to their smaller brethren.

- The primary form of armament for light cyborgs is the Cyborg Assault Rifle - essentially a slightly smaller MG that can carry a micro-class weapon attachment - Light Grenade Launcher, some kind of small pod rocket, Javelin laser etc. The base MGs are replaced with C-HEMG-based rifles in early T3. There are other kinds of weapon available as well, such as the Mini-Pod, Blowpipe SAM, Flamer, Sniper Rifle... you get the idea... and some Light Cyborgs are somewhat unusual customers...

- The primary form of armament for medium cyborgs is the Heavy Cyborg Rifle - essentially a slightly toned down Heavy MG that can carry a light weapon attachment - and there are lots of those... Grenade Launcher, LCan (and later the newer sleeker HPVCan), Flashlight, Flamer, Lancer (single-tube) and lots of others. Replaced with Minigun late T2 (note that the Minigun is actually a micro-class weapon on vehicles). And there are non-rifle weapons too, such as enhanced single-shoulder launchers (Lancer, Tank Killa, Rapier...) and our old friend the Light Mortar

- Heavy Cyborgs vary in design but none use rifles; they all stick to tank-style weapons. Bear in mind that if their main weapon is a medium that can mount a subweapon they can stick a micro-class weapon there And of course there's always the light howie...

- Special stances and abilities include sprint (+speed -accuracy), kneel (--speed +accuracy +evade), lie (--speed +RoF ++evade), sneak (-speed +evade +stealth, auto hold fire) Very necessary but a pain to implement I'd imagine...

- Special abilities that rely on both model and research (and equipment) include shield (-accuracy -RoF +++defense, requires L-arm shield), dash (-accuracy ++speed, requires leg jets research, limited duration), jump (+++speed, pass terrain, can't be hit by ground-only weapons, requires leg jets research, one-shot limited range) and fly (++speed, -accuracy, can't be hit by ground-only weapons, requires leg jets research, long duration, certain models only)

- Methinks we need Cyborg sergeants to boss the little guys around a bit better


[Vehicles]

- More propulsions! Vary tactics a bit, give you a bit more to do research-wise (now that all the superfluous defenses are gone), and keep everyone on their toes! Besides, seeing Collective units rumble about in Gunship, Heavy Hover and Panzer and Nexus units using JAeGEr, Dreadnought and Bipedal props in the cams would be freaking 1337. Bear in mind that, like the weapons, the different propulsions you can use (and some of their properties) vary depending on chosen body size.

- Recoil attribute varies how different propulsion types handle 'heavy' weapons; I'm obviously talking cannons, gauss, howies and the bigger missiles

- Directional damage! If we're gonna do projectile collisions anyway... Most stuff can't penetrate the front armor except drivers and gauss, high-damage MGs and rocket pods will nail most things if they get a clear shot of the rear. And vert missiles and howies have an obvious advantage raining Death From Above! (so no silly VTOL damage multipliers anymore please!) The trick is, the choice of body and propulsion greatly influences directional defense 'bias' (difference in front, flank, top and rear armor effectiveness). For example, Gunship, L-Track, Panzer, and Collective and Synthesis bodies have great frontal armor but piss-poor rear - obvious siege units but vulnerable to flanking. Half-Track, JAeGEr, and Paradigm and Nexus bodies have a low bias and are much more resistant to attack from odd angles but don't have crazy-high frontal defense making them wear out faster. These strike-oriented setups are designed to flank and be flanked rather than hold the line.

- Advanced ground propulsions (Panzer, Delta, Heavy Hover, Hovertank) must be built in an upgraded Prime Factory. Assault-class tanks must be built in a Prime Factory with all three additional Modules tacked on regardless of propulsion choice. Advanced air units (Gunship, Dreadnought) must be built in an upgraded Prime VTOL Factory, and assault-class Bomber VTOLs and dreads need one with all the extra modules attached. Note that the JAeGEr can be built in either Prime factory owing to the jet-based nature of its propulsion (it is in fact a hoverdyne).

[lav_coyote25]

excellent!  ;D

[Watermelon]

General:
smaller side-turret on heavy assault tank(having main gun engaging other tank,while having mg to engage cyborgs/person etc) needs multi-targeting ai actions,I am working on it atm.

satellite is useless because it takes forever to get from research...

all dropship/naval units need multi-targeting ai i think,it's a bit silly that a massive dropship/battleship has only one weapon/engage one target at 1 time...

current gui is very hard to modify,even from the source files...devurandom and some other dev is planning to change it/rewrite it according to mailing list

Weapons:

weapon weight is weird,cannon is heavier than missile...huge weapons on small bodies problems can be solved by comparing the engineoutput(which is currently unused) of a body in body.txt with the weapon weight.

projectile collision is sorta working,a missed bullet/cannon sabot/artillery shell/missile etc can hit other units/structures now.

imo mg's are too good vs buildings,a fortified structure shouldnt get destroyed by a few mg bullet in less than 1 sec...

Cyborgs:
they are already much better than 2.0.5rc1 now due to the projectile 'hit' system change(no more DICE based hits,so small cyborgs are much harder to hit now)

the special abilities sound like something can only happen a fps game...

Vehicles:
Directional armor(front,rear,left,right,top,bottom) is done(needs testing)

not sure about what kind of bonus propulsions should give.

- Oh, and some kind of Synaptic Link-themed building that could allow defenses in an area to accrue experience for kills and become stronger over time would be greatly appreciated!

[karmazilla]

Watermelon: I love what you've done with the hit system  ;D