[Cam 0] 'Scavenger Wars' Ideas Thread

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

My main concern is that new campaigns most probably will turn "too advanced" comparing to current ones (where most of missions has the same basic scenario, where biggest exceptions are those with lassat, rescuing team Alpha remains and maybe civilians rescuing). And it would be hard to "jazz them up" without breaking their plot (but improved details like nice texture for that dam in Beta campaign would be nice).

I have some ideas about late-game weapons that would most likely end up as late T3 weapons for my mod, such as laser-propelled ballistic missiles, gauss howitzers, or gauss gattling guns to name a few. However, for later campaigns, I'd be unable to expand on that further without delving outside of hard sci-fi territory, which is not something that I'd want to do for a game like this. (That's also why I'm not exactly as enthusiastic about alien invasion plots as others seem to be, especially when the question of how us lowly humans could ever hope to comprehend how these "alien artifacts" are supposed to work, especially in as little time as a few minutes, is brought up. Now, if it were set in a universe more life Half-Life, Supreme Commander, Bioshock, or the Tiberium or Red Alert series from the broader Command & Conquer meta-series, then I'd probably want to propose more exotic things, like molecular disrupter beam cannons, or artillery that fire shots through wormholes that lead towards their target. )

In which case, I'd rather prefer to create campaigns that take place at the same time as the main campaigns, offering alternate points-of-view during the conflict against NEXUS. For example, there could be a campaign with a splinter faction of the New Paradigm that escaped corruption from NEXUS, and during that campaign, the splinter group would struggle against NEXUS or any number of previously unknown (possibly likewise infected) groups, possibly lending some assistance to Team Alpha up until NEXUS launched a nuke at their base. That sort of campaign would allow developers to effectively incorporate new technology across all 3 tiers, including Incendiary Mortars and Howitzers, Twin Assault Guns and Cannons, and Cannon Fortresses to name a few.

[Emdek]

Shadow Wolf TJC, I didn't meant too advanced in technology context, but as too advanced as using more advanced techniques, like story branching etc.

Technologies are another issue.
If those campaigns would be accepted into mainline (any opinions from developers? I've not seen any...) then current T1/T2/T3 model should be probably changed, as it initially was supposed to mirror campaign technologies. So some of current T3 ones (which are available only in MP currently) could be moved to those new ones then.
For example, if it would be allowed to have T0 level for scavengers technology then it should be always locked to that level or allow to use "mixed" technology?
Also for new campaigns (post 3) we would need some new ones probably, not only weapons or bodies (yes, I'm thinking about things like maybe shield generators).

[Rman Virgil]

Shadow Wolf TJC, I didn't meant too advanced in technology context, but as too advanced as using more advanced techniques, like story branching etc.
........

"Too" advanced - is that is a judgement to stop a course of action..?

Like - "Don't do branching, the technique is too advanced." Why..?

If somebody wants to make a campaign without "advanced techniques" they are free to do so and have been for 13 years.

Why shouldn't that same aesthetic freedom apply to Campaign 0 & Campaign 4 making use of advanced gameplay techniques ...?

Pray tell, why should CAM 0 & 4 be bound to the exact gameplay experience (& one dimensional, linear, aesthetic techniques) of the original campaign created 14 years ago...? I'm all ears.

What is being done with these 2 new projects is consistent with the timeline and backstory of the original campaign and, IMHO, that is more than sufficient homage.

Perhaps there are some detailed aesthetic guidelines for new creations that are to be followed in order for them to be considered for inclusion in the official distro of the game, that we may have missed..? Where are they to be found..?

If CAM 0 & 4 are brought to completion as they are being designed right now it is very possible that original campaign will suffer in comparison. Like after playing all 3 people will feel - "Man, that CAM 0 & 4 were fantastic... but CAM 3.... well, it was OK."

That's really looking into the future.... but let's say that is a legit concern - what then.... ?

Well I don't think the answer is to scale back the achievements and innovations of CAM 0 & 4. That much I'm sure of.

If such a scenario turns out for the original campaign suffering in comparison - well that's a discussion for another project and thread, IMO.

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[Emdek]

Rman Virgil, well, for someone who would play it from beginning to end with new campaigns it could be a bit inconsistent (no, not storyline, that's another story ), a bit boring in the middle (1-3).
It also depends how would be that prequel treated, if included as first campaign in mainline then beginning of Alpha would be probably easier than it. But I guess that new campaigns would be grouped somehow and "independent" from each other (especially prequel, since it will entirely different technology set).
As I've said before, current campaigns (1-3) could be also somehow improved, but it would be hard if we want to fully preserve current storyline.

[aubergine]

I think this cam (and cam4) can be more advanced and still tie in nicely with cam1-3.

In Cam 0, you're basically returning to the surface as rad levels drop to safer levels. It's a new world, just after the collapse, and there are many choices to be made.

You quickly realise that this new world is more dangerous while fending off rivals to get food and water. More fighting ensues over medical supplies to deal with any number of diseases that have been caused by the lack of sanitation and refuse processing. As your team heads towards Cheyenne, it constantly runs in to dangerous bands of marauders. Although some factions join along the way, it's clear that the only way to quickly rebuild civilisation is to stop all the minor skirmishes - and to do that the project decides to seek out military tech.

As Cam 1 starts, there are still skirmishes with other scavenger factions, but those quickly subside as you enter New Paradigm territory. They too are seeking out military artefacts, but unlike the project their goal is to create military state. Realising that it was the industrial military complex that led to the collapse in the first place, and many other adverse pre-collapse events such as the failure of global economy and oil wars, the Project realises that they have no choice to gain a much stronger military advantage.

... and so on.

I still feel that an effort should be made to create a full back story for the game, starting pre-collapse and running to what could be the end of Cam 6.

I've still not had chance to get Cam 4 set-up (work crazy busy this last week) so I'm not sure of it's timeline or story plot - is there a summary of that somewhere?

[Rman Virgil]

Rman Virgil, well, for someone who would play it from beginning to end with new campaigns it could be a bit inconsistent (no, not storyline, that's another story ), a bit boring in the middle (1-3).
It also depends how would be that prequel treated, if included as first campaign in mainline then beginning of Alpha would be probably easier than it. But I guess that new campaigns would be grouped somehow and "independent" from each other (especially prequel, since it will entirely different technology set).
As I've said before, current campaigns (1-3) could be also somehow improved, but it would be hard if we want to fully preserve current storyline.

I understand the issues surrounding the improvement or changes made to the original campaign. I just think that is a discussion that merits its own dedicated thread.

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[Emdek]

aubergine, well, we will see how it will turn out.

About continuation, there is enough material to create next 3 campaigns (4-6), maybe even next ones (the main issue are technologies, not plot itself).
About 4-6, we had some discussion on IRC how it could turn out, like temporary alliance with New Paradigm (due to new attacks from Scavengers maybe) which later betrays, there could be later counter attack from Collective (there is no confirmation that it get destroyed when Beta ended, for sure lots of their forces got destroyed, but nobody said that their main base got destroyed too ) and at the end it could turn out that Nexus wasn't entirely destroyed or something like that.

Returning to prequel, how many missions it would last?

Rman Virgil, yes, but I think that we should focus on one task first probably only sketching ideas for possible changes in 1-3 and plot for later ones, so we ensure that story will be consistent and won't need later rewrites.

[aubergine]

I'm not sure a separate thread is a good idea, we already have a thread deluge

IMHO we should focus on making Cam 0 as good as it can be, but take in to consideration Cam 1-3 and Cam 4, so that Cam 0 doesn't break the sparse storyline of those campaigns (I've no idea what the story is for Cam 4 so apologies if it's storyline is not sparse).

The linear nature of Cam 1-3 is OK IMHO, in a desperate struggle for survival you don't get chance to go roaming around you just have to go from one point to the next. I assume that in Cam 4 you start with a fairly decent set of tech and knowledge of warzone warfare, so it seems a good point to re-introduce more varied gameplay.

The first time I played Cam 1-3 I struggled at pretty much every stage because everything was so new to me. I recently went back and did a bunch of Cam 1 missions and they were easy now that I know a lot more about the game's strategies and tactics.

IMHO Cam 0 should have fairly chaotic battles - the Project are still learning to fight, as are most of their foes. Early missions should focus skirmishes around various resources rather than bases, so that if you lose a battle you're only losing a resource and not the mission - you get several chances to complete the objective. As Cam 0 draws to an end the skirmishes will become more deadly, with enemy factions realising that they need to take down Project HQ if they are to have any chance of gaining the resources they desire. This could be the point at which The Project decides it needs more military tech, thus leading to Cam 1.

[aubergine]

@Emdek where is that material - is it written down anywhere? Otherwise we'll end up with 4-6 being similar to 1-3 in that any story will be lost in time and we'll only have FMVs and mission briefings remaining to give us any indication of what the back-story was...

EDIT: I'd be happy to collate all this stuff, perhaps in a private wiki space that has invite-only user access if people are worried about the story giving too much away?

[Emdek]

aubergine, no, that was only draft on IRC, I can prepare basic "path" (even more than one, I would like to see there some specific themes which are absent in 1-3) for brainstorming, as specific missions would need own detailed scenarios anyway.
But that for sure should be a separate thread.

Also I would need to try current cam4, as I think that it would be good to keep as much as possible from it, if Goth Zagog-Thou agrees to go that way.

[Rman Virgil]

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Consistent timeline and backstory are NOT the problem or what I was speaking to.

I was very specifically speaking to an advanced gameplay aesthetic experience that DOESN'T exist in Campaigns 1 ~ 3 but does in CAM 4 & will in CAM 0.

Logically there are only 2 courses in that regard (I will repeat in a different way).

1.) Scale back such techniques in 0 & 4 so that they match those of the simplistic 1~3. In which case that is a discussion appropriate to this thread.

2.) Adapt the advanced gameplay techniques of 4 (& 0) to 1 ~ 3. In this later case the discussion is best served in separate thread, I contend.

I repeat...I am NOT talking about storyline / backstory consistency. That is a matter of storytelling craft and talent and really not a problem to achieve. It is # 2 above that is the issue I have been speaking to.

It would help if you all knew the techniques we are talking about here first hand and understood their implementation in CAM 4.
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[Emdek]

Or got third way, like keep advanced game play but have some transitioning missions in the beginning of next campaigns set and also improve a bit existing ones.

[Rman Virgil]

Or got third way, like keep advanced game play but have some transitioning missions in the beginning of next campaigns set and also improve a bit existing ones.

Sure. (Why quibble even though I believe # 2 covers that base.)

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[Giani]

About 4-6, we had some discussion on IRC how it could turn out, like temporary alliance with New Paradigm (due to new attacks from Scavengers maybe) which later betrays, there could be later counter attack from Collective (there is no confirmation that it get destroyed when Beta ended, for sure lots of their forces got destroyed, but nobody said that their main base got destroyed too ) and at the end it could turn out that Nexus wasn't entirely destroyed or something like that.

Or military forces from other continents...

[Emdek]

Giani, who knows where Collective has their main base (personally they look for me kind like communists )...
Also there was idea of Nexus merging (or being it's puppet) with some advanced AI from Japan.