Gauss Cannon research tree weirdness

[aubergine]

I wasn't sure where to post this topic, but seeing as this question arose from my scripting activities I thought I'd ask here

Not content with the already insane number of warzone related tasks I've set myself, a few hours ago I embarked on a mission to better understand the research tree.

I'm using a tool called Flying Logic (which is normally used for things like Theory of Constraints) because it has very good automatic layout features, even on large models / diagrams. In particular, it also has a very useful grouping feature which I hope to use to draw out a macroscopic overview from the research tree.

Anyway, can someone explain this to me:



Why is "rail gun" a pre-requisite for "gauss cannon", when "hardened rail dart mk3" also requires "rail gun"? Surely it would be better to just have "hardened rail dart mk3" as the only pre-requisite for "gauss cannon"?

*confused*

[aubergine]

Similar scenario with Rail Gun as well - the green lines on the image below show the unnecessary extra requirements:

[aubergine]

And hardened rail dart mk2 --> hardened rail dart mk3: another unnecessary link as mk3 needs rail gun (and rail gun needs mk2)?

[NoQ]

There are a lot of unnecessary links that make sense only if you discover some technologies via artifacts.

[aubergine]

Uhm, could you give an example? I would assume that the research tree enables an item as soon as it's prerequisites are enabled, regardless of whether their pre-requisite are enabled?

[cybersphinx]

I guess the most probable reason is "lack of useful visualization", so those things are easily overlooked.

[aubergine]

Well, I'm painstakingly working my way through the tech tree and hope to have it finished before the weekend so I'll have a definitive list of where these things occur fairly soon.

[effigy]

I han't thought about this weirdness in the rail line. Probably because I typically go for the next available weapon due to the time it takes to research and produce them. It never occured to me to try and skip needle or rail and go directly to gauss. I'm tempted to offer the theory given to me when I inquired about the Whilrwind AA upgrade part of the tree: prereq's were created to control timing of a powerful weapon entering the game.

[dak180]

Uhm, could you give an example? I would assume that the research tree enables an item as soon as it's prerequisites are enabled, regardless of whether their pre-requisite are enabled?

If you get an artifact then you immediately get access to that tech even if you have none of the normal prerequisites (and presumably, though i have not checked, would also get access to anything solely depending on it once researched); some of those odd links in the tech tree are likely as a result of trying to account for this.

[aubergine]

@effigy: Yes, prereq's are to control timing, in which case the longest path from A to B is the only one that matters - hence the green lines shown above are pointless?

@dak180: I'm still not convinced that's a valid assertion. Let's take this little gem I just found:



Green lines indicate longest path. Red line indicates pointless prereq, because until the green line path has been taken you can't get assault gun hardpoint.

Now, if I got an artefact that gave me Rotary MG Bunker, then that by definition includes Assault Gun (whether I'd researched Assault Gun or not). In which case I should be able to research Assault Gun Hardpoint even if I've not got Assault Gun, yes? Alternatively, it should give me all prereq techs that are not yet researched?

If there's an issue that artefacts might give players an unfair advantage, then it's the artefact drop code that needs fixing to prevent that, not cruftification of the tech tree IMHO. In other words, if the game was planning to drop an artefact of Rotary MG Bunker, but sees I don't have it's prereq, Assault Gun, then the artefact dropped should be Assault Gun and not Rotary MG Bunker.

I believe there is already code available that will facilitate this sort of logic - specifically the persueResearch() JS API function which must by definition work out what the next required tech is on the way to a target tech.

I'm finding literally loads of these "red line" links in the tech tree and if they could be removed it will make the tech tree significantly easier to read and understand.

If these "red line" oddities are purely as a result of campaign oddities, then maybe the campaign should get a separate tech tree so as not to over-complicate the tech tree used in skirmish/mp games?

[effigy]

Ahhh... so, you're looking at redundancies, and I was thinking obtuse requirements (rocket accuracy opens Whirlwind/Hurricane accuracy, etc).

[aubergine]

There are indeed some very obtuse requirements in there, but I've been doing my best to ignore those for now. One which I've just noticed was the fact that Robotic Manufacturing is required for Cannon Autoloader Mk2 = Wat!?

And there are possibly some missing requirements too - for example, I can create a VTOL CB Tower without researching Mortar Targeting Computer (which is required for normal CB Tower).

Also, I've just realised the diagram I'm building is going to be a dream for AI devs trying to work out what research paths to follow. Because it has a feature where you can set something as complete, and all subsequent items then indicate how "available" they are based on what's been "researched" so far. That's going to be easier explained in a youtube video though, I'll do that next week.

[aubergine]

This is the best "red line" yet (click to zoom - it's a huge image)...



When I was adding the link between Advanced Engineering and Nexus Resistance Circuits, alarm bells were ringing in my head. I didn't bother digging in to Mortar or Cannon categories, although I suspect there will be another prereq path going through there, but after some staring at the screen I spotted a longer path - highlighted in green. At the very least, that green path must be taken to get NRC, so the direct red line (along bottom of image) between Adv. Eng. and NRC is probably the most bonkers one yet! LOL

Note to self: I need to get out more.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

At 1st, I was questioning as to why these redundant prerequisites were there as well, but after hearing from NoQ about how they're there to help prevent players that stole some technology from other players (through dropped artifacts) from developing more advanced stuff from that point forward, I no longer have any desire to remove them. Now the more obtuse prerequisites, on the other hand, that's something that I'd like to see removed...

[aubergine]

I still think the redundant prereqs should be removed. The JS API persueResearch() algorithm is capable of working out the next step in research tree to get to a given tech. As such, when player pics up an artefact, that code should be used to work out what the next tech is on the way to the artefact and give them that.

Having redundant links in the tech tree is the wrong place to fix the artefact code.

I've just completed the engineering branch of the model, so tomorrow I should be able to get the final branch (sensor turret) complete - luckily it's the smallest branch of them all! I'll then upload the model and you can take a look at it. I'll prolly upload two versions - one with redundant tech (red lines) and one without.

There are prolly some redundant prereqs that I've missed - the tech tree is huge, not just in terms of techs but the lines between them all! Ideally we could do with some sort of inverse pathfinding algorithm that removes the best paths and leaves the worst paths (because the best paths in a research tree are actually redundant, you still have to complete the long path to actually enable a tech to be researched).

Anyways, I now have a terrible headache from staring at tech tree for 6 hours solid. Bed time for me!