My long list of suggestions for balancing out the tech tree.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

Well, I was originally going to propose a few new weapons to fill out some missing niches in existing weapon lines, but it looks like I have a few bones to pick on how balanced the tech tree seems to be, so I might as well point them out, as well as try to propose some ways on how to fix them.

1st of all, and I'm just going to point this out 1st since I believe that this would be the easiest to fix, there's how upgrades are handled. I've noticed that weapon damage, armor, and even building, production, research, and power upgrades seem to progress in an arithmetical manner instead of an exponential manner, meaning that while these upgrades may have a big impact early in a match, they tend to have less and less of an impact as you continue to research upgrades along that line. Currently, weapon damage is determined by the following formula: Damage/Armor/Speed/etc. = Base Damage/Armor/Speed/etc. x (1+(.25 x Upgrade Level)). For example, researching HEAT Cannon Shells increases the damage dealt by Cannons from 100% base to 125% base, and 125% is 100% multiplied by 1.25; whereas HEAT Cannon Shells Mk2 increases the damage dealt by Cannons from 125% base to 150% base, and 150% is 125% multiplied by 1.2; and HEAT Cannon Shells Mk3 increases the damage dealt by Cannons from 150% base to 175% base, and 175% is 150% multiplied by 1.166 (7/6). Notice how each new percentage multiplier seemed to be a smaller proportional decrease from the previous upgrade's percentage multiplier?

I propose that we change the upgrade formula to something more like this: Damage/Armor/Speed/etc. = Base Damage/Armor/Speed/etc. x (1.1^Upgrade Level). (You may wish to change that 1.1 variable to something else.) That way, each new upgrade level would have as big of an impact over the previous upgrade level as the previous upgrade level did over the upgrade level that came before it, since the effects of each new upgrade level would be the effects of the previous upgrade level times a fixed value of 1.1.

Next, I feel as if too much of the tech tree is too interdependent on other research lines for research specialists' good. Although having to research stuff like Synaptic Link Data Analysis, Factory Modules, Engineering, and CB Towers as prerequisites for weapon or vehicle upgrades all seem to make sense in general, having to research weapon or vehicle upgrades from one line to be able to research stuff from another doesn't always seem to make sense, particularly when the 2 lines aren't related in any way, or even if the research object in question doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to one or more of these lines. It's also annoying, since players are pretty much forced to do some research along a weapon line that they probably wouldn't want to use anyways.

Sure, it makes sense that you'd need to do some research on Flamers in order to be able to build Incendiary Mortars or Howitzers, or Plasma Cannons, since they combine Flamer technology with Mortar, Howitzer, or Cannon technology respectively, and it also makes sense that Mortars require Light Cannons as a research prerequisite since Mortars are basically Cannons repurposed for artillery work, and that Light Cannons require Hardened MG Bullets as a prerequisite since both Machineguns and Cannons (and Mortars) rely on ballistics, smokeless powder, and rifling to work. However, it doesn't seem to make sense that Mortar Targeting Computers need to be researched in order to be able to research CB Sensors, which, in turn, need to be researched in order to be able to research Ripple Rockets. While I can understand requiring sensor upgrades, and maybe even accuracy upgrades for the weapon line, in order to be able to research long-ranged artillery from said weapon line, why do we even need CB Sensors for Ripple Rockets? Also, why do we need a targeting computer for Mortars in order to be able to research CB Sensors for a completely different weapon system to use? I don't get it.

Then, there's the fact that some of the weapon lines seem to be related to other weapon lines, yet they use different upgrade sets. 3 notable examples of this that I know of include the machinegun and anti-air lines (which are both lines of rapid-fire gun-based weapons), the rocket and missile lines (for obvious reasons), and the mortar and howitzer lines (which are both lines of gun-based artillery weapons). For the Mortar and Howitzer lines, this seems to be especially problematic, since once you've researched Howitzers, there doesn't seem to be much reason to continue on with researching upgrades for the Mortar line. What I'd like to suggest is that each of these 3 pairs of related lines be merged into 3 single more-uniform lines: "Machineguns" from Machineguns and Anti-Air, "Rockets" for Rockets and Missiles, and "Artillery" for Mortars and Howitzers.

And finally, there's the fact that certain weapon lines are pretty much doomed to remain ineffective against certain targets. While this isn't all that big of a concern for more mid or late game stuff, including Mortars and Bombs, it is especially problematic for early-game stuff. As of now, players can choose to specialize in Machineguns, Cannons, Rockets, or Flamers soon after beginning a classic T1 no-bases match, though out of all these, only the rockets line has the ability to cover multiple kinds of threats, including not only tanks, but cyborgs, aircraft, structures, and even artillery, all while machineguns are forever doomed to remain ineffective against tanks, and while cannons are forever doomed to remain ineffective against cyborgs.

By far the worst offender of this imbalancing is probably the Flamer line. With only 3 weapons to choose from in this line, none of which include any anti-air weaponry, and the fact that all of them suffer from very short range and a severe lack of effectiveness against Hardcrete, players are pretty much forced to take up a second weapon line in order to compensate, especially when matches drag on for a bit. In fact, if a player that focuses exclusively on Flamers is unable to defeat his/her opponent before they get VTOLs, and the match is on a low-oil map where players can't afford to dedicate research to more than 1 or 2 weapon lines, then chances are that that player would lose the match. Sadly, there aren't any new weapon lines that are reasonably powerful from the start that any player could readily pick up on starting at T2.

Therefore, I'm going to propose that we move the start of the lasers line from T3 to somewhere around early T2, and modify and expand upon it to include anti-vehicle lasers, as well as more advanced T3 lasers. I'll also be proposing some additional weapons for the machinegun, cannon, and rockets line in order to better address their problems.

I'm also going to propose that upgrading unit HP and unit Kinetic Armor require separate lines of research, and that the Thermal Armor line can be researched starting at T1 instead of at T2. That way, players that are facing opponents that specialize in Flamers or Lasers could focus on improving their Thermal Armor sooner, and still being able to increase their HP without causing any balance issues since they'd still find themselves vulnerable to kinetic weapons while they neglect to upgrade their Kinetic Armor.

Edit: This thread originally started out from this debate: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8878

Edit #2: I'm thinking about proposing more weapons that require research into more than 1 line, such as Gattling Cannons (Cannons + Machineguns), Cannons that shoot jet-assisted rounds (Cannons + Rockets), Railgun Howitzers (Howitzers + Railguns), and Particle Beams (Railguns + Lasers) to name a few. This is so that, in higher-oil and team-based games, players would be able to focus on their individual weapon lines, while also benefiting from research done in other lines (either by themselves or through their teammates' own research).

Also, I'm now considering working on a mod with these proposed changes. Thanks NoQ for teaching me how to mod.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

The following is a list of changes to the tech tree that I'd like to propose. Note that this list includes suggestions for new technologies (mostly weapons) to fill out some gaps in certain tech lines, as well as new weapon ideas in order for players focusing on certain weapon lines (such as machineguns, cannons, and rockets) to better cover a wider array of threats than normal.

Machineguns and Anti-Air:

• - Hurricane AA and Whirlwind AA: Move them into the machineguns weapon line so that they'd share the same upgrade line as machineguns (and make it easier to upgrade both lines at the same time).
  
  • - Hurricane AA: Add Heavy Machinegun and Chaingun Upgrade as prerequisites.
    
    - Whirlwind AA: Due to how overpowered it seems (Even the Stormbringer can't match it in dps!), I feel as if this should be more of a T3 weapon, and due to me wanting to place this within the machinegun upgrade line, I'd like to replace its prerequisite of requiring AA HE Flak Mk2 with Depleted Uranium Bullets (which itself requires Neural Synapse Research Brain as a prerequisite). I'd also like to increase the turret's price from $150 to $250. (You might also want to change the weapon's damage per shot and rate of fire to account for its new position within the machinegun upgrade line.)
  - Expand the machinegun upgrade line with 2 more damage upgrades (Depleted Uranium MG Bullets Mk2 and Mk3), and 3 or more rate-of-fire upgrades (Chaingun Upgrade Mk2 and Mk3, Rapid Fire Chaingun Upgrade Mk2 and Mk3, and/or Hyper Fire Chaingun Upgrade Mk2 and Mk3). Add Dedicated Synaptic Link Data Analysis as a prerequisite for Rapid Fire Chaingun Upgrade, and Neural Synapse Research Brain as a prerequisite for Hyper Fire Chaingun Upgrade.
  
  - Assault Gun: Replace its prerequisite of Hyper Fire Chaingun Upgrade with Rapid Fire Chaingun Upgrade (due to expansion of the machinegun line's upgrades).
  
  - Twin Assault Gun: Add Hyper Fire Chaingun Upgrade as a prerequisite. Increase price of turret from $100 (which is the same price as the Assault Gun) to $200, increase weight from 600 to 5000, and increase HP from 300 to 350. Also, make sure that the Assault Gun doesn't become obsolete upon researching this, since the heavier weight and higher price might discourage some players from using this on lighter bodies.
  
  - New weapon: Anti-vehicle gattling gun - Vulcan (kinetic all-rounder machinegun): A large T2 chaingun that fires 20mm anti-tank rounds, it is designed for use against vehicles, including tanks, instead of cyborgs. Has similar performance to the Assault Cannon, including weight, price, and HP, though it trades penetrating power for a higher rate-of-fire. While it has greater dps against Half-Tracks, Tracks, and Hardpoints than the Assault Gun, its dps against Wheeled and Hover vehicles is more-or-less on par with it. Requires Tungsten-Tipped MG Bullets as a prerequisite. (For a real-life example of such an anti-vehicle gattling gun, here's a GAU-8 Avenger, a rotary cannon used on the A-10 Thunderbolt II.)
  
  - New weapon: Heavy anti-vehicle gattling gun - Ripper (kinetic all-rounder machinegun): A double-barreled T3 variant of the Vulcan that fires 30mm anti-tank rounds. Performs similarly to the Twin Assault Cannon, with the same HP, price, and weight as it, albeit with lower shot damage and a higher rate-of-fire. Requires Depleted Uranium Bullets as a prerequisite.

Cannons:

• - AA Flak Cannon: Replace its prerequisite of Hyper Velocity Cannon with Medium Cannon (so that it can be researched sooner), reduce their price from $250 to $150, and increase their range to 16 (the current range of the Hurricane, Whirlwind, and Stormbringer). (You may also wish to reduce their damage, splash radius, or rate-of-fire.)
  
  - New weapon: Anti-personnel scattergun - Blunderbuss (kinetic anti-personnel cannon, versatile): A special T2 cannon that's designed for use against squads of Cyborgs. Think of it as more akin to an oversized shotgun. Although its dps would pale in comparison to the Assault Gun, it would cause splash damage over a sizable area, meaning that the damage would add up fast if used in groups, against groups of Cyborgs. Like other cannons, it would provide additional HP, though it would also be cumbersome. Would require Hyper-Velocity Cannon as a prerequisite.

Railguns:

• - New weapon: Rail scattergun - Scattershot (kinetic anti-personnel railgun, versatile): A T3 railgun version of the Blunderbuss, for taking down squads of Heavy Cyborgs. Would require the Blunderbuss and Rail Gun as prerequisites.
  
  - New weapon: Rail flak cannon - Sandstorm (homing kinetic anti-tank railgun, anti-air): A T3 railgun version of the Flak Cannon, for taking down swarms of more advanced aircraft. Would require AA Flak Cannon and Hardened Rail Dart as prerequisites.

Rockets and Missiles:

• - Merge them into a single group so that they'd share the same upgrade line.
  
  Rockets:
  
  • - Sunburst AA: Replace its prerequisite of Lancer AT Rocket (which requires Stabilized Rockets, which, in-turn, requires Synaptic Link Data Analysis as a prerequisite) with HE Rockets Mk2 and Rocket Autoloader (so that it can be researched sooner), reduce its price from $200 to $150, and increase its range to 16 (the current range of the Hurricane, Whirlwind, and Stormbringer).
    
    - Ripple Rockers: Remove CB Towers as a prerequisite, and add Improved Rocket Wire Guidance and Sensor Upgrade as prerequisites, since Ripple Rockets aren't necessarily exclusively used for counter-battery work (even though they're pretty good at it ). Also, reduce their price from $300 to $250 since Howitzers in general seem to outclass them in terms of dps (especially against tanks) due to their much higher shot damage and rate-of-fire.
    
    - New weapon: Rocket Assault Pod (kinetic anti-tank rocket): A heavier T2 version of the Mini-Rocket Pod that sacrifices a bit of its rate-of-fire and the ability to target air units for a much stronger punch. Designed as a more user-friendly (though weaker) alternate to the Lancer and Tank Killer, with a role similar to the Medium and Hyper-Velocity Cannons, though cheaper (with a price of $125), lighter, and with much less HP. Requires Rocket Autoloader Mk3 and HEAT Rocket Warhead as prerequisites.
    
    - New weapon: Hailstorm Rocket Array (indirect kinetic artillery rocket): A T2 weapon that resembles a gray-colored Seraph Missile Array, and is meant to fill in the gap between it and the T1 Mini-Rocket Array. Compared to the Mini-Rocket Array, it sacrifices 2 of its missile shots for more damage-per-shot, a bigger blast radius (splash radius 1), and a slightly shorter reloading time. Requires Mini-Rocket Array and HEAT Rocket Warhead as prerequisites, and would become a prerequisite for researching the Seraph Missile Array. Has a price of $200.
  Missiles:
  
  • - Seraph Missile Array: Replace Mini-Rocket Array as a prerequisite with Rocket Assault Array (see above), increase splash radius to 1.5 (so that this works more effectively against groups of Cyborgs), change rate-of-fire from 8 missiles per 15 seconds to 6 missiles per 8 seconds, reduce price from $400 to $300, and grant homing capabilities to the missiles.
    
    - Archangel Missiles: Reduce their price from $500 to $400 since Ground Shakers, despite only having 2/3rd of their range, seem to have FAR greater dps against tanks (likely because of their much larger damage per shot and much higher rate-of-fire).
    
    - Avenger SAM: Replace the prerequisites, Scourge Missile and Sensor Upgrade Mk2, with Tank Killer Rocket, Sensor Upgrade, and Sunburst AA (moving it to the Rockets line and renaming it "Solar Flare AA" if necessary) so that a weapon like it (with a range of 20) could be made researchable sooner in T2. (You'd probably want to reduce its damage to, say, around 250, and its rate-of-fire to, say, 2 rockets per 15 seconds, to balance that out.)
    
    - Vindicator SAM: Replace its prerequisite of Advanced Missile Warhead Mk3 with Target Prediction Missiles and Sensor Upgrade Mk2 (keeping Avenger SAM, or "Solar Flare AA", as a prerequisite) so that it can be researched a bit earlier, increase HP from 10 to 50, increase range from 20 to 22, and reduce base damage from 450 to 400.
    
    - New weapon: Erinyes Missile Pod (homing kinetic anti-tank missile): A T3 version of the Mini-Rocket Pod and Rocket Assault Pod, designed as a more user-friendly alternative to the Scourge. Requires Rocket Assault Pod, Scourge Missile, and Missile Allocation System as prerequisites, and costs $250.
    
    - New weapon: Bunker busting missile - Armageddon (kinetic anti-structure missile): A T3 version of the Bunker Buster, meant for penetrating through Plascrete bunkers like a hot knife through butter. Requires Bunker Buster and Advanced Missile Warhead Mk2 as prerequisites, and costs $300.

Lasers: (The following changes were proposed in order to make lasers a more versatile weapon line that is available starting at T2, instead of just the primarily anti-personnel oriented weapon line that is exclusively available at T3.)

• - Add more upgrades to support 2 tiers of advancement instead of just 1: Ultra-High-Energy Laser Emitter Mk1-3 for T3 damage upgrades, Thermopole Supercharger Mk1-3 for T3 rate-of-fire upgrades, and Advanced Laser Focusing for T3 accuracy upgrade (and to grant access to the other upgrades and T3 laser weapons).
  
  - Laser - Flashlight: Move it to T2 by replacing its old prerequisites of Neural Synapse Research Brain Mk2 and Sensor Upgrade Mk3 with the new prerequisites of Dedicated Synaptic Link Data Analysis and Gas Turbine Generator. Reduce base damage to 30 (assuming that weapon upgrade progress is still arithmetical), reduce range to 10.5, and change its base rate-of-fire of 1 shot every 2 seconds to a volley of 6 shots every 5 seconds (to make it seem more like a laser "beam" instead of a laser "pulse"). That should provide players, especially those that are specializing in Flamers, with a nice readily available T2 anti-personnel weapon that's in-between the Heavy Machinegun and Assault Gun in terms of overall effectiveness. (It's main advantage over them would be the fact that it deals thermal damage instead of kinetic damage.)
  
  - Pulse Laser: Replace its prerequisite of Laser - Flashlight with High-Energy Laser Emitter, and repurpose this into more of a T2 anti-vehicle laser (essentially turning it from an anti-personnel weapon into an all-rounder weapon, and possibly renaming it to "Laser Cannon") with a base damage of 105 (assuming that weapon upgrade progress is still arithmetical), range of 12, and base rate-of-fire of 1 shot every 5 seconds. That should provide players with a nice, moderate-ranged, quickly researchable T2 anti-vehicle weapon (that's on par with a Hyper-Velocity Cannon with 3 damage upgrades), especially if they're not focusing on the Cannons or Rockets line (or the machineguns line if those anti-vehicle machineguns, the Vulcan or Ripper, are being added).
  
  - Stormbringer AA: Since I'm suggesting that the start of the Lasers line be moved to T2, I'm going to suggest moving this to T2 as well so that this could be quickly researched in case of VTOLs (though no adjustments to prerequisites would be needed), by reducing its damage to around 120, its rate-of-fire to around 6 shots every 3 seconds (again, to make it seem more like a laser beam with a limited duration), and its price from $400 to $125.
  
  - New weapon: Assault Laser (homing thermal anti-personnel laser): An upgraded T3 version of the Flashlight, with a range of 13.5, slightly stronger shot damage of 120, and a much higher rate of fire, with the Twin Assault Gun having slightly higher dps. Would require Thermopole Supercharger (which would, in turn, require Neural Synapse Research Brain and Thermopole Energizer Mk3) as a prerequisite.
  
  - Heavy Laser: Replace its prerequisite of High-Energy Laser Emitter with the new prerequisite of Ultra-High-Energy Laser Emitter (a new T3 laser upgrade), and repurpose this into a more anti-vehicle weapon (turning it into an all-rounder weapon, and renaming it as "Heavy Laser Cannon"), and make it seem more like the "Heavy Cannon" of lasers. Reduce its weight to 15000, its damage to 180 (so that it can hit 450 damage per shot with 6 damage upgrades), and its range to 15, while keeping its rate-of-fire at 1 shot per 6 seconds. With these changes, this weapon would be able to do much more damage to tanks than it does now, though it would probably still lose out to the Gauss Cannon, though barely.
  
  - New weapon: Tempest AA (homing thermal anti-tank laser, anti-air): The T3 replacement for the Stormbringer AA, with dps that's similar to the original Stormbringer's dps. Essentially, it would be the Whirlwind AA's rival in terms of AA capabilities, including price. (The Whirlwind's price was originally $150, and yet it could outperform the more expensive Stormbringer, which originally costed $400. To balance that, both the Whirlwind and the Tempest would be priced at $250 each.)

Flamers:

• - Inferno: Increase price from $80 to $100.
  
  - Plasmite Flamer: Increase price from $80 to $150.

Mortars and Howitzers:

• - Merge them into a single group "Artillery" so that they'd share the same upgrade line. (Chances are that research into upgrading Mortars would stop once Howitzers become available.)
  
  - Bombard: Reduce its price from $200 to $150.
  
  - Pepperpot: Reduce its price from $300 (which is the same price as Ripple Rockets!) to $200.
  
  - Incendiary Howitzer: Increase its price from $250 (which is the same price as the weaker Howitzer) to $300.

- Armor: Kinetic Armor for vehicles and cyborgs would be upgraded separately from their HP upgrades, so I'd like to suggest that the Composite Alloys line only upgrade HP, and that a new line of upgrades, which I'll call the "Kinetic Armor" line, would be created to upgrade Kinetic Armor separately. I'd also like for each of the Thermal Armor upgrades to require their tier of Composite Alloys upgrades in order for them to be researched. That way, players can focus on upgrading Thermal Armor sooner, whilst also being able to upgrade their units' HP at the same time, without causing any balance issues since they'd remain vulnerable to kinetic-based weapons if they didn't upgrade their Kinetic Armor as well.

• - Kinetic Armor: Requires Composite Alloys
  - Thermal Armor: Requires Composite Alloys
  - High-Strength Kinetic Armor: Requires Dense Composite Alloys and Kinetic Armor Mk3
  - High-Intensity Thermal Armor: Requires Dense Composite Alloys and Kinetic Armor Mk3
  - Superdense Kinetic Armor: Requires Superdense Composite Alloys and High-Strength Kinetic Armor Mk3
  - Superdense Thermal Armor: Requires Superdense Composite Alloys and High-Intensity Thermal Armor Mk3

Vehicles:

• - New vehicle body: Light body - Wyrmling: A new light body to complement the Wyvern and Dragon bodies, it would have more HP than, and would be heavier and more expensive than, the Retaliation body. Would be ideal for VTOLs. Requires Light Body - Retaliation, Gas Turbine Engine, Kinetic Armor Mk3, and Thermal Armor Mk3 as prerequisites.
  
  - New vehicle body: Medium Body - Salamander: A new medium body to complement the Wyvern and Dragon bodies, it would have more HP than, and would be heavier and more expensive than, the Retribution body. Would be useful for some VTOLs. Requires Medium Body- Retribution, Light Body - Wyrmling, Gas Turbine Engine Mk2, High-Strength Kinetic Armor, and High-Intensity Thermal Armor as prerequisites.
  
  - Heavy Body - Wyvern: Change all prerequisites to Heavy Body - Vengeance, Medium Body - Salamander, Gas Turbine Engine Mk3, High-Strength Kinetic Armor Mk2, and High-Intensity Thermal Armor Mk2.
  
  - Heavy Body - Dragon: Change all prerequisites to Heavy Body - Wyvern, Superdense Kinetic Armor, and Superdense Thermal Armor.

- NEXUS Resistance Circuits: Replace all of its prerequisites with just Dedicated Synaptic Link Data Analysis Mk3 (so that it can be researched earlier).

- NEXUS Link Turret: Replace all of its prerequisites with just Neural Synapse Research Brain (so that it can be researched earlier, though still later than NEXUS Resistance Circuits).

- EMP Cannon: Replace all of its prerequisites with Neural Synapse Research Brain Mk2 (so that it can be researched earlier).

- VTOL EMP Missile Launcher: Replace its prerequisite Thermite Bomb Bay with HEAP Bomb Bay so that it wouldn't require any research along the Flamer line in order to get.

- HE Bomb Shells: Remove HE Mortar Shells Mk2 as a prerequisite.

- VTOL Plasmite Bomb Bay: Increase price from $225 to $300.

- EMP Mortar Pit: Replace both of its prerequisites with EMP Cannon and Mortar Pit (so that, despite being made more easily researchable, they'd require some extra effort to get compared to the EMP Cannon).

- CB Tower: Remove Mortar Targeting Computer as a prerequisite, since Mortars aren't the only weapon line that uses artillery. Ripple Rockets fall within the concept of artillery too, though they're located within the Rockets weapon line.

- VTOL Strike Turret: Merge with ordinary Sensor Turret since nobody seems to bother using this, even if they did use VTOLs. (They'd just manually order them to attack their targets.)

- VTOL CB Turret: Merge with ordinary CB Turret since nobody seems to bother using this, even if they did use VTOLs. (They'd just manually order them to search for the enemy artillery and destroy them.)

- Wide-Spectrum Sensor: Remove VTOL CB Tower as a prerequisite (since I'm suggesting merging it and VTOL Strike Turret with CB Turrets and Sensor Turrets), add Sensor Upgrade Mk2 as a prerequisite, and increase turret price to $30 (so that, instead of being less expensive, they'd be more expensive than Sensor Turrets and CB Turrets).

- Satellite Uplink Center: Add Sensor Upgrade Mk3 as a prerequisite.

Edit: Added some structure changes to the list:

- Change Flamer, Inferno, and Plasmite Flamer Bunkers to Emplacements, which, like Bunkers, can be hidden behind terrain better than Towers or Hardpoints (a godsend for something as short-ranged as Flamers, especially immobile ones), yet are Hard structures (like Hardcrete) instead of Bunkers, which (and this especially includes Flamer Bunkers) are too vulnerable to Flamers to be of any use against Flamer rushes.

- Change all Emplacements and Towers, except for Sensor Towers (and other related towers), Howitzer Emplacements, Ripple Rocket and Archangel Missile Batteries, and maybe AA emplacements, into either Hardpoints, or, if a Hardpoint with the same weapon mount already exists, Bunkers. These weapons could use the extra protection, and they only cost a bit less than Hardpoints. Besides, who builds these anyways, if a Hardpoint version could be built instead?

Epilogue: I do realize that, despite how simple each of these changes would seemingly be, this would be quite a bit of work, and that I'm probably going to get comments suggesting that I make my own mod to accommodate all this. As much as I'd like to do so, I'm afraid that I don't know how to create such mods, sadly.

Edit: NoQ has shown me how to do some basic modding, so I'm now able to make a mod with at least some of these changes. Thanks NoQ.

[Iluvalar]

That sounds like a fan of the NRS+ mod that doesn't know it yet... Proportionnal upgrades, new weapons to fill the gap, delinking stuff around, quicker lasers ^^... except the bodies are called lizard and drake...

2 things I want to comment :
I tried, but the proportional upgrades can't fit with the actual tech tree. Or anything close. It would be a nightmare to balance, it's simpler to start from scratch. When you scale the upgrade by more than 20% (or so) you quickly discover anomalies. Like lancer becoming weaker than pods and such... it's just impossible.

Second, and the most important. Do you realize that by giving solutions to any problem in a single line, you permit the player to blindly research those upgrades without never considering what he is doing. You kill a big part of the adaptation process, because on the research layer, it never happen anymore. The players would just have one line for the whole game. I believe i did the good choice by doing the exact opposite in NRS. The "missile" line now count the mra ( mra=>ripple=>explorer (borg) => seraph=> archangels => super nova) and they are all of the arty type. This mean every lines haves their own weak points and the opponent can make a move in his research layer to counter it.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

Second, and the most important. Do you realize that by giving solutions to any problem in a single line, you permit the player to blindly research those upgrades without never considering what he is doing. You kill a big part of the adaptation process, because on the research layer, it never happen anymore. The players would just have one line for the whole game. I believe i did the good choice by doing the exact opposite in NRS. The "missile" line now count the mra ( mra=>ripple=>explorer (borg) => seraph=> archangels => super nova) and they are all of the arty type. This mean every lines haves their own weak points and the opponent can make a move in his research layer to counter it.

I've never particularly cared about changing my research as much as I do about changing my production line or build queue, since players can at least adapt quicker by building the proper counters than they can by spending lots of time and resources researching stuff for little gain. However, I do want to ask you this: as a developer, do you really want to artificially add unnecessary roadblocks to force players' progression to slow down? I personally want to help streamline progression along various lines so as to reduce the amount of frustration caused when, suddenly, you find that you can't progress any further on your favorite research line.

What I'm suggesting is that there seems to be too much of an imbalance amongst the 4 starting weapon lines (machineguns, cannons, rockets, and flamers) that players playing on low-oil maps are often forced to take a gamble on them, and hope that they haven't picked a line that performs poorly against the opponent's. The Rockets line is already lucky to have this kind of coverage as it is, though sadly, the other lines don't seem to be as lucky. My proposed solutions are oriented towards providing more immediately viable research options for different lines that, while not as effective in the long run as focusing on a weapon line that is better suited for the threats in question, can quickly mean the difference between victory and defeat.

From the way that I see it, focusing on 1 or more research lines to suit your playstyle is not much different from picking your own faction in other rts games like Command & Conquer, Starcraft, or Supreme Commander, other than that in Warzone 2100, you have the opportunity to choose additional playstyles during the actual match. Once you have an idea as to what that person's playstyle's going to be, you yourself can decide on what playstyle you're going to try against them in the long run. For example, I've noticed that a player that focuses on Flamers may be somewhat vulnerable to VTOLs, and that, if the Flamer player does manage to develop adequate anti-air capabilities (most likely Hurricane AA, assuming that the player wasn't focusing on anything other than Flamers), then that player's attention would become divided between improving anti-air capabilities and improving Flamer capabilities, whereas the other player could continue to focus on improving a single weapon line. See why I proposed moving the start of the Lasers line to T2, specifically around the point where VTOLs may start showing up?

Still, even if there were all-rounder machineguns or anti-personnel cannons, even if there were additional weapons to fill in gaps, some things will never change in weapon lines, and each of these weapon lines would still play differently as a result. Cannons would still be not as effective against cyborgs as machineguns due to their lower rate-of-fire, while machineguns would still not be as effective against heavily-armored tanks as cannons or rockets due to their lower shot damage. Lancers, Tank Killers, Scourge, MRAs, and Seraph would still be somewhat difficult to control effectively due to their unwieldy combination of high power and low rate-of-fire, while Mini-Rocket Pods (and my proposed T2 and T3 variants), compared to cannons, would lack in HP, and be less effective against Cyborgs, Hovercraft, and structures. Flamers would still be short-ranged, and both Flamers and Lasers would still be able to ignore Kinetic Armor upgrades as if they didn't exist, but would still have diminishing effects as the opponent's Thermal Armor gets stronger.

Edit: I've never played the NRS mod, though from the looks of it, I might not have the same ideas on tech tree progression as you do, especially when it comes to cross-weapon-line stuff like Incendiary Mortars or Plasma Cannons. I also prefer a more modular and uniform approach when it comes to upgrading stuff, preferring to upgrade as much stuff at a time as possible (as evidenced when I suggested merging machineguns with anti-air, mortars with howitzers, and rockets with missiles) instead of upgrading each one individually. I do admit that we share the same opinion on the separation of HP upgrades from Kinetic Armor upgrades.

[Emdek]

AA Flak Cannon: Replace its prerequisite of Hyper Velocity Cannon with Medium Cannon (so that it can be researched sooner), reduce their price from $250 to $150, and increase their range to 16 (the current range of the Hurricane, Whirlwind, and Stormbringer). (You may also wish to reduce their damage, splash radius, or rate-of-fire.)

I would say that these could require Assault Cannon, for sure not standard Cannon, as it can't shoot air units.

[zydonk]

That sounds like a fan of the NRS+ mod that doesn't know it yet... Proportionnal upgrades, new weapons to fill the gap, delinking stuff around, quicker lasers ^^... except the bodies are called lizard and drake...

2 things I want to comment :
I tried, but the proportional upgrades can't fit with the actual tech tree. Or anything close. It would be a nightmare to balance, it's simpler to start from scratch. When you scale the upgrade by more than 20% (or so) you quickly discover anomalies. Like lancer becoming weaker than pods and such... it's just impossible.

Second, and the most important. Do you realize that by giving solutions to any problem in a single line, you permit the player to blindly research those upgrades without never considering what he is doing. You kill a big part of the adaptation process, because on the research layer, it never happen anymore. The players would just have one line for the whole game. I believe i did the good choice by doing the exact opposite in NRS. The "missile" line now count the mra ( mra=>ripple=>explorer (borg) => seraph=> archangels => super nova) and they are all of the arty type. This mean every lines haves their own weak points and the opponent can make a move in his research layer to counter it.

Iluvalar above says much of what I would want to say, but I will add that WZ is not intended to be merely a super-efficient way of getting through an mp game as quickly as possible. I assume the sk aspect was developed by Pumpkin from the requirements of the campaign section, which may account for some of the anomalies in research. But the tech tree was adapted in such a way as to force the player into as broad a spectrum of gameplay as possible, which is something we all resist once we settle into an individual style of play. Nonetheless, variations in the AI gameplay - esp on somewhat unbalanced maps - will often force the player to change tactics, which is where the wider than necessary knowledge of the variety available in the tech tree becomes really useful. Sure, I sometimes forget how to move on to the heavier mortars and missiles, but that's because I don't bother to know too much about the innards of WZ, which would spoil all the fun of playing the game.

I have gone back to playing the original 1.10 version of the game because I already find the present rebalance just too "flat" (all respect to the rebalancers, though). In fact, I've got so poor at play that I still cannot survive at the hard level, the level I played at for years with the original Pumpkin release, patched to 1.10.

[Emdek]

What about an option to select balance type (not mods, built in)?

[Iluvalar]

I've never particularly cared about changing my research as much as I do about changing my production line or build queue, since players can at least adapt quicker by building the proper counters than they can by spending lots of time and resources researching stuff for little gain. However, I do want to ask you this: as a developer, do you really want to artificially add unnecessary roadblocks to force players' progression to slow down? I personally want to help streamline progression along various lines so as to reduce the amount of frustration caused when, suddenly, you find that you can't progress any further on your favorite research line.

As a developer, instead of limiting the amount of lines by merging them and proposing a small amount of line to the players, I chose the opposite road for NRS. instead of defining themself as a "rocket" player as their favorite line, players define themself as "rocket+flamer alt+rof emphasis on medium body on wheel and power upgrades". So when it comes that they need to adapt their style, it's never a "roadblocks" that force them to chance the whole strat. They simply trade their wheel for an htrack and add the kinetic armor to their path and then they are "good" to fight mg for a while.

More fun then that, even in big teams, every player can bring his own favorite or desired line. Then, with the other lab they have, they try to find "pieces" that glue that together. And by the minute 5:00 they come out with some unique plan which include a bit of everyones favorite path. And that's fun.

Instead of being railed or 5 path and know exactly which one is good vs which and how to exactly proceed. The players are literally facing millions of combinations and need constant attention (read scouting) to figure out what the opponent plans next. I even played some games where i didn't researched any weapons at all.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

As a developer, instead of limiting the amount of lines by merging them and proposing a small amount of line to the players, I chose the opposite road for NRS. instead of defining themself as a "rocket" player as their favorite line, players define themself as "rocket+flamer alt+rof emphasis on medium body on wheel and power upgrades". So when it comes that they need to adapt their style, it's never a "roadblocks" that force them to chance the whole strat. They simply trade their wheel for an htrack and add the kinetic armor to their path and then they are "good" to fight mg for a while.

More fun then that, even in big teams, every player can bring his own favorite or desired line. Then, with the other lab they have, they try to find "pieces" that glue that together. And by the minute 5:00 they come out with some unique plan which include a bit of everyones favorite path. And that's fun.

Instead of being railed or 5 path and know exactly which one is good vs which and how to exactly proceed. The players are literally facing millions of combinations and need constant attention (read scouting) to figure out what the opponent plans next. I even played some games where i didn't researched any weapons at all.

I've decided to work on creating a mod with my list of suggested changes in mind (My thanks go to NoQ for teaching me how to make these. ), and while I'm still set on merging a handful of these lines together, and on developing a handful of new weapons to help compensate for each of the individual "starting" weapon line's weaknesses (I originally made the decision to suggest these changes in response to how the power limits that are seemingly imposed by low-oil maps seem to limit players' ability to research, forcing them to specialize in only a handful of research lines: something that you were trying to explain about earlier in this thread.), I'm now thinking about wanting to create many more cross-line weapons that require research into 2 or more different weapon lines, so that there's not only things like Incendiary Mortars (Mortars + Flamers), Phosphor Bombs (Bombs + Flamers), or Plasma Cannons (Cannons + Flamers), but also things like Gattling Cannons that quickly tear through tank armor (Machineguns + Cannons), anti-tank Ramjet Cannons that fire jet-assisted anti-tank rounds (Cannons + Rockets), Railgun Howitzers (Howitzers + Railguns), and Ion Cannons (Railguns + Lasers) to name a few. These weapons would need to be capable of outperforming most other weapons within their line(s), perhaps even giving weapons from a higher tier a run for their money. That should give players that play with their favorite weapon line(s) in high-oil and/or team-based matches something neat to look forward to for focusing on multiple research lines at a time (either by themselves, or with help from teammates), all while still allowing players in low-oil games a better chance to research viable weapons to help balance out their favorite weapon line(s).

[Iluvalar]

I'll just repeat that one because I don't want to see you work on an handmade mod for months for nothing :

The actual tech tree CAN'T support nothing close to a proportional upgrades system. If you want to keep the tech tree structure resemblant to the original, you will need to change EVERY stats of every components of the game aggressively at such point I doubt they will be recognizable. And vice versa, if you want to keep such component close to what they are, the tech tree will need to simply crumble and being rebuild from scratch.

So start thinking about what your tech tree will look like.

[aubergine]

I should have a fully interactive tech tree (based on normal WZ tree) by this weekend if things go according to plan.

Some sneak previews:
* viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8863
* viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8934

[aubergine]

Interactive version of current wz2100 tech tree has landed: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8938

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

I'm thinking about adjusting the damage multiplier for Anti-Personnel, Anti-Tank, All-Rounder, Flamer, and Artillery weapon categories to 100% vs VTOLs since they seem too lightly-armored to be able to take lots of punishment, especially while grounded. This would also make Versatile weapons, like the Assault Gun, more effective against them, yet wouldn't change how effective they are against ground targets, and most of them would still lack the dedicated AA weapons' punch and ability to home in on targets. However, I do plan on reducing damage dealt by AA weapons (to 80% for starters) to compensate for this change, though I'd also want to make sure that they remain more effective against VTOLs, dollar for dollar, than Versatile weapons.

I'm also working on turning most of the towers and emplacements (except for mortars, howitzers, Ripple Rocket and Archangel Missile batteries, and Sensor Towers) into hardpoints and bunkers, which, while only costing a tiny bit more money, provide much more protection. (Besides, who builds these anyways if there was a slightly more expensive Hardpoint or Bunker version of the same thing already available to build?) I'm even considering turning the various AA Emplacements into AA Bunkers as well. To balance this out, I'm also thinking about moving the damage categories of Phosphor, Thermite, and Plasmite Bomb Bays, and Incendiary Mortars and Howitzers, to the Flamers category, and adding some new weapons with the Bunker Buster category, including an Earthquake Bomb and a Bunker Busting Howitzer, so that players could have access to a wider variety of weapons for better dealing with all these new Bunkers.

Speaking of, I'm also working on turning the Flamer, Inferno, and Plasmite Flamer Bunkers into Emplacements, which, while also lying lower to the ground than Hardpoints or Towers (which is especially useful for hiding them behind hills, a must when using immobile defenses armed with such short-ranged weapons as Flamers), are far less vulnerable to Flamers than Bunkers are, and would, therefore, be more useful for warding off Flamer Cyborg rushes.

By the way, I'm starting to feel that this sounds more like an expansion pack than a simple mod. Ah well. It's still meant for providing a more balanced and fun experience to players.

[effigy]

TL;DR

Make a mod and I'll check it out

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

I'll just repeat that one because I don't want to see you work on an handmade mod for months for nothing :

The actual tech tree CAN'T support nothing close to a proportional upgrades system. If you want to keep the tech tree structure resemblant to the original, you will need to change EVERY stats of every components of the game aggressively at such point I doubt they will be recognizable. And vice versa, if you want to keep such component close to what they are, the tech tree will need to simply crumble and being rebuild from scratch.

So start thinking about what your tech tree will look like.

I've decided to plan out a new tech tree for this mod (or perhaps I should call this an expansion pack, since it's starting to resemble one), though it'll take me a while to create my 1st rough draft.

Anyways, I'd now like to move all future discussions on this mod to this new thread in the Showcase section, since I believe that that's where such things should be discussed about.