Merge HQ and Command Relay Center

[Emdek]

There is currently some discussion on how to make HQ more useful.
My idea is to merge it with Command Relay Center, by making the latter a module for it.
We got one important structure less and HQ makes more sense without being less logical.

The main technical issue I see is that it would require changes in campaign:
- most difficult one is change in at least one sequence, where is mentioned (also in these showing satellite image of our base, but those are outdated anyway);
- changes in some maps;
- change (which could be done independently) to allow researching commanders without having it built (there is probably hack in that one mission when these become available which allows to build this structure on away mission) and only require it to produce them (additionally game could be more restrictive when we lose it, like commanders unassigning all units and refusing to assign new or refuse to target).

[Jorzi]

Now that I think of it, it sounds like a fairly logical extension module for the hq...

[bendib]

I like the idea.
I just don't want the HQ to be changed too much.

I'm really kind of afraid for warzone to be changed too much.

[lav_coyote25]

I like the idea.
I just don't want the HQ to be changed too much.

I'm really kind of afraid for warzone to be changed too much.

i also do not want changes. too many mentions of command and conquer and those other RTS games is starting to make me very leary of doing ANY changes. yes, we need a better engine. yes, we could stand to have better AI, as for balance, i think there is this wanting to gut warzone 2100 just to make life easier for those that like stupid rules. i will see if i can find my article on that... will post it if i can find it.

[Berg]

I have to agree...

seems there is those that want warzone to be just warzone and those that dont want to pay for starcraft so they make warzone into starcraft

regards berg

[lav_coyote25]

I have to agree...

seems there is those that want warzone to be just warzone and those that dont want to pay for starcraft so they make warzone into starcraft

regards berg

so it isnt just me being paranoid!!!

[Emdek]

To be clear, this wasn't inspired by other games.
And what about removing requirement of having it built to be able to research commanders (that exception for that one campaign mission is really weird)?

[Rman Virgil]

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It's not at all about changing WZ into any other RTS game. It's about naturally expanding it's own unique matrix. And that unique matrix is more than what you are seeing as an end-user committed to any one of the 3 very distinct modes of play. The protests here are based on simplifications of change intentions which in the end misrepresent most all the carefully proposed development initiatives going forward.

If you learn to read Pumpkin's very own WZ source code, it's DNA if you will, you will better understand the application of epigenetics to WZ's development and its appropriateness to WZ Creators clearly stated original vision and intent for ongoing refinements and expansions of WZ game play, while still maintaining a unique identity within the RTS domain. This has never been an either or proposition - preserve WZ in amber (take your pick: WZ Retail or v.1.01 thru v.1.10... v.2.3.x... 3.x....will the "real WZ" stand-up) OR make it into a clone of SC, SC2, C&C, etc. etc..

It's such a frackin shame that we lost Pumpkin's & NEWST's bbs where in the voice of WZ Creators over almost 5 years, was loud and clear for anyone to understand without all this debilitating obfuscation. It's how we kept the game alive after Pumpkin's premature end and was definitely central to how and why we achieved getting the source code liberated after years of continuous effort. That said, we still have the original source code as a frame of reference AND WZ Creators liberation README file.

- RV

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[lav_coyote25]

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It's such a frackin shame that we lost Pumpkin's & NEWST's bbs where in the voice of WZ Creators over almost 5 years, was loud and clear for anyone to understand without all this debilitating obfuscation. It's how we kept the game alive after Pumpkin's premature end and was definitely central to how and why we achieved getting the source code liberated after years of continuous effort. That said, we still have the original source code as a frame of reference AND WZ Creators liberation README file.

- RV

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well, if i remember correctly the newst bbs should still be available somewhere on backup disks.... just cant remember who had them.... i was in contact with that person, but now for the life of me a cannot remember the name.

[Rman Virgil]

........................
It's such a frackin shame that we lost Pumpkin's & NEWST's bbs where in the voice of WZ Creators over almost 5 years, was loud and clear for anyone to understand without all this debilitating obfuscation. It's how we kept the game alive after Pumpkin's premature end and was definitely central to how and why we achieved getting the source code liberated after years of continuous effort. That said, we still have the original source code as a frame of reference AND WZ Creators liberation README file.

- RV .

well, if i remember correctly the newst bbs should still be available somewhere on backup disks.... just cant remember who had them.... i was in contact with that person, but now for the life of me a cannot remember the name.

I know Lord Appoc mentioned this more than once - just recently too.

However what was also lost was continuity and I don't think any restoration at this time would change that.

Besides reading the original source as a history of original developer intent there is ALSO playing MP & SKI modes in sequence to see those very clear WZ Creator original design intentions. What I mean is play Retail Release v.1.0 then apply Patch v.1.01 and compare... ditto the procedure all the way to v.1.10 (all these files are available).

What you will see is MAJOR changes that have NOTHING to do with bug fixes - in addition to new content there were MAJOR Feature and Game play changes all along that entire cycle.

That pattern is clearly visible in the original source along with the major changes they never got to finish for release. So really, the evidence still exists without benefit of being able to refer to WZ Creator's voice among the chorus of some 100,000 + combined posts from Pumpkin's MPlayer & NEWST's bbs .

So this is why when I hear about preserving good old original WZ I have to roll my eyes some and ask "Which one ?". The only one that can truly qualify for no major change from original release in April '99 is CAMPAIGN Mode - and rightly so, that it should remain intact game play wise. As for MP and SKI mode WZ - the development story, the design intentions and actual implementation pattern speak to an entirely different approach that is REALLY why we and the game are still here, truth be told.

Regards, RV.

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[aubergine]

"SKI" mode?

[Emdek]

I guess that he means Skirmish.
Anyway, this discussion appears to be a bit off topic.

[Terminator]

"SKI" mode?

skirmish (vs. AI)

[Rman Virgil]

"SKI" mode?

skirmish (vs. AI)

Correct. It's a reference used since retail release in the community.

......
Anyway, this discussion appears to be a bit off topic.

"Appears".... let me clear that up precisely.

Merge HQ and Command Relay Center

That proposition derives from a clear, fundamental and original design intent by WZ Creators which I was speaking plainly to because of a chorus of biased, unsubstantiated, utterances made that would invalidate that very fundamental design intent upfront and also reject out of hand any particular proposition of this type (such as yours, ie.) derived from it when all the historical evidence does not support that chorus and its claims imagining for themselves defending some sort of stalworth purity for the game.

In other words, I was bringing into evidence indisputable historical fact to substantiate and support the total legitimacy of your making this particular design change proposition in the first place and writing these posts because the very legitimacy itself of following this exploratory course was being disputed without a shred of historical fact to back it up. Under those prevailing circumstances I was being relevant to the topic.

However, even with the preponderance of logic, supporting historical evidence and fundamental relevancy on the side of my posts, I fully acknowledge that I'm metaphorically whistling Dixie in Yank country and quite likely wasting valuable time in a futile effort. Though if just one person gets it then I'll not consider the effort in vain.

But in any case, let me effectively close-out my comments here.

Persist in making up the "facts" for obfuscated discussions and I'll just bite my tongue when I come across it so you all can "stay on topic" talking-droning at each other instead of engaging in generative, dialogical conversation.

In a Pixar creative cultural context I'm not, that's for sure, though that is exactly the culture that predominated the first half of WZ's history beginning in 1998 (BETA testing WZ before Retail Release), set in motion by WZ Creators themselves and sustained by those who were there at the beginning & for a long, long, time after. This is where the loss of the WZ community's cultural continuity rears its Medusa-like face.

- Regards. RV.

EDIT: Cleaned-up syntax, corrected typos and added link to "dialogical conversation" which is also at the heart of what made the WZ community singular (along with the aforementioned "living product" design aesthetic & culture of collaboration) and what I sadly took for granted till I was struck by its steady course towards extinction.
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[lav_coyote25]

thanks rman, couldnt have stated it better myself. now if only those that do can realize what was said.