Zarel's Improved Campaign planning

[Zarel]

Okay, so, eventually, I'm planning on improving the campaign, so here's a list of what I want to change.

1. Replace time limits with lower power caps.

• The time limits serve only two purposes: first, to force you to reload your save from the beginning of the mission if you run out of time, and second, to prevent you from turtling for power.
  
  The first is nothing but an annoyance, and adds nothing to the game, and the second can be achieved with a low a power cap.
  
  In some campaign maps (like Evacuate), a time limit makes sense; I'm just removing time limits from the other ones.

2. Apply balancing from skirmish.

• Should help campaign players adjust to skirmish faster, and vice versa.
  
  The biggest problem will probably be in the first few missions, when you have very little weapon variety. MG is more of a generalist weapon in campaign, but very specialized in skirmish. This isn't that big of a deal, since skirmish-MG is effective against all the enemies you come across (cyborgs, wheeled vehicles, and soft structures)...
  
  ...until you get to Alpha 5. In Alpha 5, you meet the NP, and their hardpoints. MGs do 75% damage to hardpoints in campaign, but 50% in skirmish. Doesn't seem like that much, but it's a pretty big difference when it comes down to it.
  
  Easy fix is probably just to move Light Cannon earlier in the game.
  
  Other major change is probably Nexus's Angel Missiles. Let's just replace them with more ripples.

3. Add skirmish-only tech to campaign

• I'm not sure if we want Auto-Repair, Nexus Link, Uplink Center, or LasSat in campaign, but the others definitely need to go in.
  
  Heavy Repair Turret especially. EMP Cannon and Seraph, too. Twin Assault Gun/Cannon. HL/Stormy. Plasma Cannon. Upgraded bombs. Super Heavy cyborgs. Wyvern/Dragon (Dragon would take two transport slots).

4. Make the top middle scav outpost in Alpha 7 easier to find

• I'll make the "scavenger outpost detected" and the blinking red light come up when you first enter the area, so you won't miss it. It seems a lot of people get stuck on this level since there's a scavenger outpost in the corner that no one ever finds.

So those are my proposals. What are your ideas for what an improved campaign should have?

[Mats]

2, 3 and 4 are great.

3 - Don't see Auto-Repair would do any harm, might be nice. NeXus link would make no sense in the campaign though.

1. Replace time limits with lower power caps.

Would be better to just give you the power you would have accrued at the end of the mission. There may be problems with power cap too. You could just leave your factories to produce units to avoid the power cap? In earlier levels, the power cap would never be reached and would only apply in later levels, unless the cap is going to change throughout the campaign?

It would be good if the campaign was harder. An ''even harder mode' or something like black project? made. It could give options when you start a campaign for 'easy' 'medium' 'hard' or something? Not sure how hard this is to impliment.

(taken from just below)Edit away campaign maps so enemy has Power Generator and Oil Derricks.

Yes yes yes yes!

[KukY]

I aggre with first 2 and 4.
About 3; We definetly need Auto Repair. LasSat's no, you destroyed them in gamma 8. If some were left, they probably would stay on other Earth's hemisphere and wouldn't have time to come close enough for you to use them against Nexus.
Uplink maybe could be recieved after you capture NASDA central...

My suggestions;

• Edit away campaign maps so enemy has Power Generator and Oil Derricks.
  Now you just wait for them to run out of power and slowly destroy them... (Really visible on final mission.)

More coming later, I have to go now.

[Per]

Except for number 4, and perhaps some other minor fixes like it, I think this will make it a different campaign. The time limit, like it or not, puts a fundamental shape on everything, and removing it will necessitate changing tons of stuff (a simple power cap will not be enough). So while I would be happy, actually more happy, to play a campaign with the changes 1-3, I think we should retain the old campaign without them, and add this one as a new "re-imagined" campaign option.

[Zarel]

Would be better to just give you the power you would have accrued at the end of the mission.

That doesn't solve the problem of forcing you to reload an earlier save for no reason.

The lack of time limit in the first half of Alpha 3 messes up the power aspects of the campaign, anyway.

There may be problems with power cap too. You could just leave your factories to produce units to avoid the power cap? In earlier levels, the power cap would never be reached and would only apply in later levels, unless the cap is going to change throughout the campaign?

There's a unit cap, too, and with my unit cap changes, it'll be fairly low in the early-game... it shouldn't make enough of a difference.

I'm thinking of making the cap change throughout the campaign, using research or something.

It would be good if the campaign was harder. An ''even harder mode' or something like black project? made. It could give options when you start a campaign for 'easy' 'medium' 'hard' or something? Not sure how hard this is to impliment.

We already have a difficulty setting in Options.

Maybe we should also display it in "New Campaign", so people don't miss it...

About 3; We definetly need Auto Repair. LasSat's no, you destroyed them in gamma 8. If some were left, they probably would stay on other Earth's hemisphere and wouldn't have time to come close enough for you to use them against Nexus.
Uplink maybe could be recieved after you capture NASDA central...

Okay, we'll have Auto Repair. I'm still not sure about uplink, though... having to explore all campaign maps, including the last one, is fairly important, I think.

Edit away campaign maps so enemy has Power Generator and Oil Derricks.
Now you just wait for them to run out of power and slowly destroy them... (Really visible on final mission.)

Very good idea.

Except for number 4, and perhaps some other minor fixes like it, I think this will make it a different campaign. The time limit, like it or not, puts a fundamental shape on everything, and removing it will necessitate changing tons of stuff (a simple power cap will not be enough). So while I would be happy, actually more happy, to play a campaign with the changes 1-3, I think we should retain the old campaign without them, and add this one as a new "re-imagined" campaign option.

You're right. We can have a "classic campaign" bundled mod, like we do for the 1.10 balance mod, but I think these changes should be the default campaign.

So, that aside, do you like all the proposed changes so far? Do you have any additional suggestions? You mentioned that removing the time limit will change tons of stuff - can you list what you think should be changed?

I think I won't completely remove time limits, just use them lots less. They'll still be there for intercept missions, and perhaps the embark stage of away missions.

[KukY]

Edit away campaign maps so enemy has Power Generator and Oil Derricks.
Now you just wait for them to run out of power and slowly destroy them... (Really visible on final mission.)

Very good idea.

Well, lots of people already said that...

Should I start working on editing those maps? I'd love to do that...

Except for number 4, and perhaps some other minor fixes like it, I think this will make it a different campaign. The time limit, like it or not, puts a fundamental shape on everything, and removing it will necessitate changing tons of stuff (a simple power cap will not be enough). So while I would be happy, actually more happy, to play a campaign with the changes 1-3, I think we should retain the old campaign without them, and add this one as a new "re-imagined" campaign option.

You're right. We can have a "classic campaign" bundled mod, like we do for the 1.10 balance mod, but I think these changes should be the default campaign.

That would be the best solution...

[guciomir]

Why do you hate the time limit? I loved this one, it forces player to use some strategies instead of building tons of tanks and moving them inside enemy base. For the poor player you can make the time limits bigger if they choose easy difficulty. In fact, there is no mission where the time limit is a factor for the better players. I finished the campaign twice, on hard difficulty and only once I had to replay the mission because of the timer. It was like a challenge to me.

My idea:
Time limit exists, but when you run out of time, oil derrics stop producing money (maybe research centres halt their work?)and you won't lose the game.
Pluses:
Players will not be able to sit and gather gigantic army/tons of money. Some persistent guys might do that if there is any power cap instead of this. They will just produce the army and the cap will not be reached. Moreover, they would be able to play the mission for 4+ hours and the strategy of "build an army, send it blindly to the enemy base" will be sufficent. This solution will prevent the issue. The nice thing would be to adjust the time limits according to the difficulty. (+50% time on easy for these poor players)


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The idea of giving enemy ability to produce money is just great. Will it work on the "away" missions?
Is it possible to add extra fortifications for the enemy? More scavengers, more bunkers for new paradigm etc.
Is it possible to add new scripted events? Like enemy attacks when the player lands on the "away" mission?
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It will be quite hard to balance everything once you use skirmish balance. It is a great idea, but will need VERY long testing. Probably some enemy templates should be changed.

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EDIT: thinking more about the time limit, I would vote for adjusting the time limit according to the chosen difficulty, something like 90% for hard, 100% for normal and 120% for easy (numbers to be discussed) will be the perfect solution. Good players will be challenged by the time, poor players will stop complaining about the timer.

[Zarel]

Why do you hate the time limit? I loved this one, it forces player to use some strategies instead of building tons of tanks and moving them inside enemy base. For the poor player you can make the time limits bigger if they choose easy difficulty. In fact, there is no mission where the time limit is a factor for the better players. I finished the campaign twice, on hard difficulty and only once I had to replay the mission because of the timer. It was like a challenge to me.

The time limits are high enough that players can spam tanks, anyway, so it's irrelevant.

Time limit exists, but when you run out of time, oil derrics stop producing money (maybe research centres halt their work?)and you won't lose the game.

Kind of like current system: All it does is force players to reload an earlier save if they make too many mistakes.

Pluses:
Players will not be able to sit and gather gigantic army/tons of money. Some persistent guys might do that if there is any power cap instead of this. They will just produce the army and the cap will not be reached. Moreover, they would be able to play the mission for 4+ hours and the strategy of "build an army, send it blindly to the enemy base" will be sufficent. This solution will prevent the issue. The nice thing would be to adjust the time limits according to the difficulty. (+50% time on easy for these poor players)

That strategy only requires like 30 minutes, which is much lower than the average campaign time limit of 1-2 hours for any substantial map that requires it.

The idea of giving enemy ability to produce money is just great. Will it work on the "away" missions?

Yes, in fact, the suggestion was only for away missions. Campaign enemies already have derricks in non-away missions.

Is it possible to add extra fortifications for the enemy? More scavengers, more bunkers for new paradigm etc.
Is it possible to add new scripted events? Like enemy attacks when the player lands on the "away" mission?

Yes.

It will be quite hard to balance everything once you use skirmish balance. It is a great idea, but will need VERY long testing. Probably some enemy templates should be changed.

Not really. Skirmish balance works fine for campaign maps, too; it's pretty universal.

[GooglyBoogly]

would you preserve the option to play the campaign in the standard manner?

Any changes to defences, enemies earning money etc may not be appreciated by everyone.

[iap]

Oh no, please don't remove the time limit. Players who saves every second and go back when they do mistakes... Well, it's their problem. I very much like the time limit, it gives more fun to the game, when racing the mission against the clock. and it happened to me some times that I finished the mission just in the last second, or 3 seconds after that was too late. Its fun, and for me part of the fun is to start the level all over again to finish it.
Any other limit would be artificial.

About the other 3 changes... I don't like them to be changed, just for the reason of... well, making the campaign distinct. After all, campaign is not "a bunch of skirmish maps one after another", as in so many other games, it is something different.
Anyway, you may do what you want with those, but don't change the time limit, please.

[Per]

Just capping power storage will not make it bad to turtle, as you can just convert power into other kinds of resources (ie structures and droids). Capping total power output from derricks will be even more hurtful than a timer running out, as you will enter a doomed state then grind down steadily instead of getting it over with quickly. So I am not sure how this should work out.

[kringled]

The timer also has implications for limiting one's ability to research (particularly in those maps where the artifacts, once researched, unleash a large number of further items to research). It also impacts one ability to build to do base preparation (although power is more limiting there). I still kind of like the timer.
Lowered power caps is ok, as power was rarely an issue in the campaign as I played it.

In general, reconciling the tech trees between campaign and skirmish is probably mostly a good idea. As it is, having
somewhat distinct sets of weapons, damage ROF etc. is likely to be at least a little confusing.
However, for plot reasons I'm less sure about replacing Angel missiles with ripples. Nexus bases and units are so different looking than either NP or Collective, in part because they don't use any of the same weapons or defensive structures. Using ripples would be less consistent with that. What if Nexus had archangels from the outset? Their better range is not really an issue in the grand scheme of things in how the gamma missions play, or at least I don't think it would be.

Keith

[Terminator]

I don't want you to make changes into campaign. Only fixing bugs are appropriate for me. Better make MP.
IMHO

[Assault Gunner]

I think that certain missions should retain the timer,such as the "evacuation" mission but the timer is simply annoying on others, and I can't test out my ideas for a battle of maneuver.

@Terminator&others There will still be a classic campaign option, if I am reading this thread right, so anyone who wants to play the original campaign still can. I know I will, but I will also want to play the new one.

[Zarel]

I think that certain missions should retain the timer,such as the "evacuation" mission but the timer is simply annoying on others, and I can't test out my ideas for a battle of maneuver.

As mentioned earlier, I'm removing time limits from around 60% of campaign missions, not all of them.