Money,Cost, Power,...and MGTower Rush

[Terminator]

Recently I've played on Rush and as usually I've lost under MG tower build up, right on my base.

I made a test, how player go build up with MG Towers.
1(CC) 100$ + 1(res)100$ + 1(gen) 50$ + 1(fac)100$ = 350$ (btw: I think its old prices for basic buildings should be changed, cause it looks like have no sense )
2 minutes and you got MGTower.

btw2.: What damage MGTower deals ? The model is from HeavyMG, I assume its not a MGTower, but HeavyMGTower that a little tricky cause we haven't res HeavyMG yet.

Whatever. MGTower = 100$

btw3: we can't change start money, its sets from base settings: if NOBase = start money 1300$, if Small or Advanced Base =2500$. (sub_btw: Where those numbers came from ? I suppose from original....its high time to change something)

Well lets take poorest case (1300$ start) we build base and we have 900$ + some time generator gave as(let make trucks on those), 900$ = 9 MGTowers.
I think it too much in the beginning.
Good micro control and you won a game. (Dont want to warzone become an "ActionRTS" game, like warcraft or StarCraft)

And one more thing, Is power Levels really works ? I started game with same setup with different levels, but it looks like the same power speed. Or there is very low difference ? ..like +0.2 or something ?

[Zarel]

I believe power levels are 0.8, 1.0, and 1.2. So yeah, not that much of a difference.

I do think the starting money should be a fair bit lower...

MG tower uses a heavy machinegun, yes.

[Terminator]

May I Recommend to set start money with power Levels at the same time ?
example: low - 700, Meddle - 1000, High - 1300. btw its reasonable start money if to take in consideration current prices for basic buildings.(But I wish start with like this: 500, 700, 900 IMHO to make it harder to start )

But if to change prices so start money would be different ofcourse.
I'm thinking about this:
CC: 350-400$ //cause its main building ..it should be expensive(of course needs to add a little armor)
Factory: 200-250$ // I think its good price
Factory Module: 150$ // wants good tank, please spend some money =)
Res.Facility: 150$ //easy to destroy, so thats why cheap
Res.Module: 150$ // However if wants to res. faster be kind pay double cost
Generator: 200-300$ // don't really know about
Gen. Module: 200-300$ // same as res. facility
Cyborg: 200-250$ //same as factory
Vtol Fac: 200-250$ //same story again
CRC: 100-150$ // if CRC would be used as "Farms" (extend-able Units Manufacturing idea) so I think cost would be closer to 100

With this price I think Current start money should be left as is. means 1300

P.s. I hope somebody could make something like this as a MOD. Would be great =)

[Zarel]

Currently, power modules are free. I think generators should be, too. Makes it possible to recover from 0 money.

[Terminator]

ok may be to make generators cheap, but module should be expensive

[Michal]

Well, defeating MGTower Rush is possible if you have tanks, or build some MG towers before the rush starts (just to kill the enemy trucks). But still its quite annoying, the massed MG towers are hard to destroy. (maybe we can just make them 'soft' structures?) Usually MG towers are followed by Mini rocket towers (longer range) and if you don't have a backup plan you have trouble.

The thing to do is just make some defence early in the game.

What annoys me more, is HMG cobra/python Hover rush, then upgraded to Assault Guns.

Well, I've seen battles won by only structures and sensors. Player slowly extends his defence, and the way to counter is prepare your own lines, and start CB tower war. Still, it's fun sometimes

[3drts]

My solution was implemented on my maps - Give the player 2-4 vipers to start with, so you can destroy the truck before it sets up a tower.

Zarel didn't like it, as he believed it risked an early rush, though on a 256x256 map, I think size alone makes either type of rush unlikely, and of course, you could always go with advanced bases......
But several user made maps out there don't have "advanced bases", because the maker never put one in.

I think other options, are putting scavenger encampments between player bases, such that a truck is doomed without an escort.

I think maps with scav bases at each oil reserve are a good idea, I hate build wars...
Solution: buildings already there, owned by neither player, such that you must secure the area with units first.
-or at least tech past MG tower - you could always build a sensor and mortar, or possibly set up bunkers under fire.
I forget, how aggressively do Scavs counter attack with units if their structures are attacked?

I think a well thought-out map could "paper over" the stupid truck rushes / truck building wars of Warzone.

[Zarel]

3drts! You're back! I haven't seen you in a long time - how've you been?

My solution was implemented on my maps - Give the player 2-4 vipers to start with, so you can destroy the truck before it sets up a tower.

Zarel didn't like it, as he believed it risked an early rush, though on a 256x256 map, I think size alone makes either type of rush unlikely, and of course, you could always go with advanced bases......

Well, MG tower rushes aren't a problem on 256x256 maps, anyway... They're only a problem on those pesky small maps, for which starting with MG tanks would just be horrible...

I don't think it's that feasible to do, either - only the mapper can decide what units you start with - I don't know how to change that.

I think other options, are putting scavenger encampments between player bases, such that a truck is doomed without an escort.

That's the option I like the best. Shame it doesn't work for 8-player maps. At least most 8-player maps are big enough for truck rushes not to be as big of an issue.

I think maps with scav bases at each oil reserve are a good idea, I hate build wars...
Solution: buildings already there, owned by neither player, such that you must secure the area with units first.
-or at least tech past MG tower - you could always build a sensor and mortar, or possibly set up bunkers under fire.
I forget, how aggressively do Scavs counter attack with units if their structures are attacked?

Well, per recently made scavengers really strong, so... yeah.

I think a well thought-out map could "paper over" the stupid truck rushes / truck building wars of Warzone.

I agree.

[3drts]

How've I been? Getting settled in 9,000 km from where I used to live (California, to Switzerland).

What has Per done to the scavengers, is there a list of the Scav states before and after the change?
Can an un-upgraded MG Viper Wheels still take on most Scav vehicles 1v1 (but maybe not rocket Jeeps, cannon busses, fire trucks)

I made a post yesterday, in the tech tree cap thread, about the possibility of having one or more advanced NPC Nexus or Collective bases, in place of Scavenger Bases...

These could really put the brakes on rushes, a more advanced faction base could hold out much longer and serve as a much more effective and durable "buffer" - but I think scavenger bunkers, rocket pits, cannon towers, rocket pits, etc scattered around the map would be sufficient to prevent truck rushes, but if they prove too weak and a truck can just drive quickly past them and rush the enemy.... its gauss hardpoint time

I'm using a new computer, don't have Wine set up yet, so I can't run editworld yet (I assume making a map editor compatible with macs is still not a priority or even reasonable possibility?), so I have no example maps with scavs added as an anti-truck rush device.

I remember I had added substantial scav bases to the passes connecting the bases on that map I made (The Lake I believe I called it), but I don't recall if I did it right, or if I had the wrong player selected, or if there was something else I needed to do to get them to show up in the game.

I do recall that the map was ringed with mountains, there was a large lake in the center, so on each side there was a narrow pass with mountains on one side, shoreline on the other, and I put a scavenger base spanning each pass (and also occupying 2 oil spots midway between adjacent players, which would surely be fought over early in the game, until hover allowed the center island with even more oil to be accessed)

The scav bases did have openings in their walls, but rocket pits and flamer towers guarding the "gate", there was no way a starting truck could just drive through the base) - and the 4 starting vipers had no chance of destroying the base either

[Per]

What has Per done to the scavengers

I merely changed the AI driving them, so that it no longer attacks players at random, only responds to attacks, and builds units without delays, which means lots and lots more scavs being produced. So if you start at no bases, then go out and attack a baba well, you'll see a huge army of scavs coming to defend it. Quite nasty. Possibly too nasty. This change is currently only in trunk.

[KukY]

What has Per done to the scavengers

I merely changed the AI driving them, so that it no longer attacks players at random, only responds to attacks, and builds units without delays, which means lots and lots more scavs being produced. So if you start at no bases, then go out and attack a baba well, you'll see a huge army of scavs coming to defend it. Quite nasty. Possibly too nasty. This change is currently only in trunk.

Could you put it in a mod?

[3drts]

Could you make the scavenger counter attack proportional to distance from a scavenger factory

A single bunker guarding a distant oil well would only have ≈ 10 infantry and a few trikes counter attack?
Whereas attacking within say...12 tiles (ie, standard vehicle sensor range) of a scavenger factory would have the scavengers send everything they have to defend the factory?

I'm really beginning to like the idea of scavengers acting as an anti-rush buffer, instead of all these other proposed (or implemented) changes to stop truck rushes (ie, mg tower needs an HQ, buildings start with low HP and it increases as they build, reduced truck build points, etc.

The point of a rush, is to strike before there is an enemy force to oppose you.... so the rush solution: have an opposing force to the rush from the very start.
Advanced bases does this, but takes base planning out of one's hands, and some strategy out of initial research and build orders...

Scavengers are currently so weak, that they will be easily dealt with after a short amount of teching.

So, we just need map makers willing to go and add or expand scavenger encampments to the standard maps, and people upset with rushing can just turn on scavengers.

If I knew how to extract the files for standard maps like bananas, or if someone gave me the file, I might be motivated enough to configure Wine (and maybe do it better this time so the 3-d view works), and fire up editworld on my mac.

[Per]

The decompile maps can be found at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2707#p26358, but maps like bananas are 8 player maps, and cannot have babas yet. To do that we need internal changes to allow more than 8 players (babas occupy a player slot), have a new savegame format, and a new map editor... no small changes.

[Mysteryem]

The decompile maps can be found at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2707#p26358, but maps like bananas are 8 player maps, and cannot have babas yet. To do that we need internal changes to allow more than 8 players (babas occupy a player slot), have a new savegame format, and a new map editor... no small changes.

Actually, I can put scavs onto team 8, make features on specific teams and make player objects features by editing the .lnd file directly, all I would need is an .lnd force compile .exe, since opening such maps either causes problems or they are automatically corrected. I would also then be able to compile maps with no starting HQ, I've found a map like this, I have no idea how it was made.

If someone would be able to make a force compile .exe then I'd love to see what things I can do with the game in its current state. I find that when modding the game it's always a challenge to see what's possible, even if you know no warzone script.