Lords of Magic

[themousemaster]

As some of you may have noticed, I seem to enjoy a game going by the name of "Lords of Magic".

I have been trying to sue it to reference game aspects in other threads, only to find out other people have not played it.

I'm just curious: is there anyone on this board who has played that game?



If not, just let this thread fall into oblivion .

[whippersnapper]

...

No takers to this point, fancy that. I'm not surprised. The prefs in the hood are insular to anything
not romper room, ABC connected to WZ. :rolleyes:

Anyway...

I got my hands on the Special Edition because of your strong recommendation and have been happily
playing with it for a spell. Have even gotten a couple ideas for the Campaign portion of the RTS I'm
working on. The game is indeed a lost classic...A treasure of a strategy game, no question 'bout that.

I've yet to find something I can use as far as MP GPMs because I think RTS and TBS call for very different
modus operandi in that dimension of design. and our RTS, while a hybrid is still real time throughout.
But then again I'm still a rank newbie to this game and with the passing of playing time a light bulb
might still go off in my head with me saying "Aha..!" to alas seeing an unusual application to the work I'm doing
beyond Campaign stuff. Like I've only just started looking at it's balance and even though our balance road map
is clear and in effect, you never know and so I try to stay open like in the tradition of Zen's "beginner's mind"...

One thing I'll say 'bout LOMSE MP - it would have been better served had they used an option 1st pioneered by
Battlefront 10 years ago in their "Combat Mission" hybrid strategy series (RT-TBS) - email MP.

Making a quick shift here from game design nuts 'n bolts talk....

You may already be hip to this but just in case you're not..

I discovered a very nice community for the game that was started by Mantera (aka Boaster) to,
in his words: "He's worked hard, since 2004, to re-inspire LOMSE..."

And he's done a heck of a job, from what I can tell. My kind of webmaster too; engaging, articulate, doesn't suffer
fools but mixes his grittiness with grace, fairness, and an intelligence sans arrogance. Mantera is one kwel dude
and a discussion he just started I'm gonna keep an eye on is called "Thiefs"... Still don't know enough, I feel, to
contribute. Just a matter of time, no doubt.

http://impz.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=LOM

Might wanna check it out if you haven't already - best place to get MP game too if your interested
- along with MODS, Maps & real discussion, as opposed to Turing Machine pronouncements with all the pizazz of
a flat cardboard box and the personality of a virus infected spreadsheet (seems like I'm in a hyper metaphorical
mood today).. Which is to say, there are others engaging LOMSE that strike me as cool and worth conversing with.

L8r, whipper
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[themousemaster]

...

No takers to this point, fancy that. I'm not surprised. The prefs in the hood are insular to anything
not romper room, ABC connected to WZ. :rolleyes:

Huh?

as opposed to Turing Machine pronouncements with all the pizazz of
a flat cardboard box and the personality of a virus infected spreadsheet

Eh?

seems like I'm in a hyper metaphorical
mood today

Oh.



Its been a very long time since I've done LoM's MP mode. As you mentioned, there is no "email to play", so it (was) only viable to play with some pals.

One of the biggest problems with Email-to-play games, however, is that you don't know if someone else is "massaging" the data behind your back. In a game like Chess, you can see the whole board at every state, so life is good. But if someone "happens" to be giving themselves 5 extra ale every turn, being able to tell this is nigh impossible. Fine for games with friends, lame for games with strangers .



So now, let me explain why I so vaunted this game in terms of a general balancing act between an RTGS game, and more limited scope RTS (and FAR more limited scope RTT) games.

BEFORE I START, let me say that this is all from playing the game itself, unmodded save for the official patches. I will be reading the forum link provided at some point in the near future (when work and freetime allows), so anything that is no longer the case int he current "most played" version, just disregard.



So, onto balance in this RTGS masterpiece, first with a wide-arching overview, strongest faction to weakest (and obviously, not counting Balkoth's influence in the singleplayer campaign, which throws everything to heck):

Life
Death

Order
Water
Air
Fire

Earth
Chaos



Yes, I did specifically split that list into 3 parts. The top 2 are the "overpowered" part, the middle 4 are the "average" (which can be translated into "balanced" if so desired) part, and the bottom 2 are the "underpowered" part.


To delve deeper: Archery is a key element to this game; as there is no way to "block" an arrow save for stepping out of it's way (or being so much higher level as to it not affect you), the archers of this game rule the day.



Life: The concept of this race was for them to be a quick team, backed up by the game's best archers (tied for 2nd-fastest rate of fire, first in longest range, tied-2nd highest damage), with their downside being that their archers are fairly expensive and slow to level, and their units as a whole have less survivability than most. All sounds good on paper, but the sheer dominance of their archers make most fights trivial. Unless you get a MUCH better earlygame start than life, allowing you to field far more (And far more experienced) troops, they will end up being able to kill anyone from any distance at any time. This, however, is hampered by the fact that life has instant-heal spells, so after a fight, they can get their troops back to fighting form much faster than any other race (save for a lategame Water). Well, that, or you keep spamming Mercenary Mages to throw nukes at them in suicide runs... but I'll get to that later.

Death: What can I say about death? Their archers are above average (3rd in damage, T-2nd in range, T-2nd in rate of fire), their melee units are above average, their troop costs aren't Order-like prohibitive, and just for good measure, they have some of the more devastating spells in the game (single target insta-death spells make using any army with a high-level hero against them extremely horrific). If not for Life's archer's ability to stymie a death army assault, they'd be #1 on my list.

Order: Order (along with Earth, which I'm getting to) take the "if they can't kill us, we win" road of strategy. Their Archers are devastating to any team that doesn't outrange-or-outsmackdown them (1st in damage, last in rate of fire, T-2nd-last in range), but all of their units have high HP, and their melee units have huge armor to boot. Order's main weaknesses are expensive troop costs, and slow speed (both in combat and on the overworld). Lategame, Order bolsters their offense with a VERY nice attack spell (Justice), which is one of the few ways to deal with large concentrations of Archers. I place them in the "balance" category, however, because after playing them a while, you realize that A) you have to have a very good early game to get to the shining lategame, and B) their low movement is a hindrance at all levels. Giving an opponent an extra 6 turns to get from your capital to theirs over, say, a Life army, can be plenty of time for them to mount a major defense. Or worse, a counter-offensive. and given Order's troop costs, they aren't a team you can just field arbitrary numbers of armies with.

Water: First off, let me say that Water has the best navy in the game. Now let me say that navies have NO bearing on the outcome of this game. That out of the way, Water is the very definition of "average". Average troop costs, average leveling time, average HP, average armor, average speed, average damage, average archer range... Unlike some games where being "average" is a severe disadvantage, in this one, since "average" archers are part of their repertoire, they do just fine early, and can stand up to most factions late. Lategame, Water also gets the game's best healing spell (Waters of Life), making any army with a decent-level mage in it require no more than 1 turn of downtime between fights.

Air: As comes as no surprise, Air is the "we are REALLY fast" team. Even their ground units have very high rates of speed, though a good number of their guys can fly. This makes them one of the very few anti-Life counters; Flying units can take any path they want to get to an enemy, so archers can't use Bottlenecks and expected avenues of approach to their advantage. Air's units are also not TOO expensive... however, they have a severe lack in both the hp and the armor departments, so in any fight where their Eagles and flying Archers can't use flight+speed to their advantage (say, a wide-area speed debuff, a lot of damaging magic flying around, or equally-fast units), they aren't just at a disadvantage, they may as well be renamed to "meat". Still, the frequency of fights where one of those 3 cases is present isn't abusively high, so they get the "average/balanced" rating.

Fire: Fire's archers SUCK (huge stats, but only 1 per stack is VERY bad). That said, they have one very key element that redeems them: Their spells are amazing. Archers aside, Fire goes for the Berserker style of play: High HP, high speed, and high damage, at the cost of (next to) no defense. While most archers will turn a Fire army to meat, a Fire army with Sorceresses can hold their with their wide array of massively fatal spells. That, however, tends to get REALLY expensive (fielding whole armies of Cavalry and Sorceresses), and given that MP doesn't regen during a turn, Fire armies end up being one trick ponies... if you can win (or even just survive) 1 fight vs a Fire army, you can win the next one, and wipe them out.

Earth: Earth (along with Order) run with the High HP, High defense, slow movement style of fighting. They cost a bit less than Order, but they have a fatal flaw: Their archers are bummers (tied for last in range with Chaos). Order's archers have more range AND higher damage than Earth's, and Order also has the sweet spell of Justice backing them up, and mages who are capable of casting it; Earth's mages are one of the worst in the game (pathetic HP, and their spells are more expensive than you'd expect). Plainly speaking, trying to outlast an opponent by virtue of HP and armor when said opponent can hit you but you can't hit them doesn't work.

Chaos: Chaos plays the same way as fire, with one major difference: Their spells BLOW. Which means they are meat to just about every other faction; archer-centric ones will shoot them down, and non-archer centric ones tend to be of the type where they want to engage you in melee anyway (Earth, Fire, Order). Chaos's archers are tied with Fire in the "waste of resources" department; they are cheap, but just don't cut the mustard, even with a numerical advantage. So take Fire, remove their awesome spells, and you get Chaos. Sorry guys, at least you rule in the Warhammer Universe.






With all that out of the way, one of the things a RTGS can use in it's favor when "balancing" is the fact that "fights" are not 100% of the game. True, Life might dominate Water on a battlefield, but if Water has another 1/2 an army waiting right behind the first waiting to step in, then... well, it might work, it might not. Obviously, I can't stand here and spout exact figures as to how "much more" an archer should cost . But it's definitely a factor, and one that an RTGS has over an RTS/RTT.








But Lo, my post isn't over yet!


Diplomacy. Another lost art of Strategy games.

The diplomatic interface in LoM is crude, to be sure, even for a 90's game. But the actual dearth of options in it puts most games short of Civilization to shame. Trading resources is in a lot of games, but how many do you know allow you to trade your world-owned buildings for another person's spells, and if he refuses, you can threaten him for it? Anything in your "pot" of owned domain is viable trade fodder (save for capital cities, capital shrines, and your Primary Hero). The diplomacy screen is also used for the "reconnaissance" aspect of the game, showing you what you know about your opponents (going far beyond just "how much they like you"), listing every single spell, item, and resource you know your opponents has, and then rating how well you "think" you know them.

Augmented by Thieves of course, although they have their own issues.





And so, we get to the "other aspects" section.

#1 is thieves. They are the Ranged-Hero, but are more generally used for their other abilities. Or would be, if said abilities worked.

They can "subdue" enemy heroes, rather than kill them, and then interrogate them for info. Problem is, good luck finding a solo hero walking around, and there is no way you are going to be able to subdue a hero with escorts; the escorts will kill your thief, or your thief's escorts will kill the hero as you try to subdue him (not sure if this is just a bug or what).

thieves can also "hide" friendly troops, making them invisible on the map. The problem with THIS ability, however, is that the thief has to be a pretty high level, and even then he can only reliably hide a small # of troops, and even THEN almost any troop will end up "seeing" them if they are within range.


#2 is the "merc rush kekekekeke". If you've played the game longer than 10 minutes, you've seen this one: You move a large army towards an opposing capital. You are within 1 days march of it. You end your turn, and on the opponent's turn, they start spewing out as many merc companies as they can (since mercs cost less to hire than regular troops), and just continuously rush your army with them. This isn't so bad for normal fights; save for, perhaps, Elven Archers, most fresh-recruit troops won't be a threat to your hardened veteran team. But in quantities of 10 armies to your one, eventually, you will start losing people.

There is a worse problem: recruiting merc Mages who start a fight, blasted all their mana on attack spells, suicide themselves, and repeat. Thankfully, the CPU doesn't know this trick...






And thus ends my post. There are a number of other nuances, minor annoyances, and UI fixes that I can think of, but none of which actually relate to the topic of this post. And I should probably read that other thread before making more comments.

[whippersnapper]

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Wow. Lots to digest. It will help me better understand LOMSE but I can also see where your exposition will also help me
in my faction work and how we've chosen to handle diplomacy in RT, among other things like Special Abilities.

So I will come at your input over the course of a few days. But I will make a few brief comments now along with thanking
you for taking valuable time to articulate your thoughts and insights - it's much appreciated.

My initial, admittedly somewhat obtuse statements, are germane to the subject and challenges involved from both sides
of the divide between game play design and those that would play and have a satisfying fun experience.

When you attempt to introduce game play mechanics that are substantively different than what folks have become accustomed to
you must face the challenge of likely precipitous Cognitive Dissonance being invoked. Here are a couple links that will explain that term:

http://changingminds.org/explanations/t ... onance.htm

http://www.learningandteaching.info/lea ... onance.htm

The art works of M.C. Escher capture this fundamental manifestation of how our brains function and the paradox embedded in its very neurological structure: http://www.mcescher.com/

At its most extreme you have the case of when Columbus first landed on the island of the Tainos in1492. He went ashore and was welcomed by the
indigenous folks on the beach. From all first hand accounts of the occasion the Tainos did NOT see the Spanish Galleons docked in plain sight
in their harbor. Literally did not see.

We're very aware of this as we proceed to introduce new RTS game play mechanics and associated GUIs and coming up with fun ways of
acclimation to the new. Anybody that departs from conventional wisdom or the entrenched norm must deal with this or risk failure from the get go.
I remember when I was studying the works of the great Bertrand Russell how he once wrote that whatever is presently accepted as logical was at
one time held to be illogical, if at all perceived in the first place.

Shall return to engage the other particulars of your post.

Regards, whipper

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[whippersnapper]

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As I have proceeded to genuinely engage your 1st class analysis themousemaster I have drawn on the work I'm doing (data assets, code,
scripting, UIs, etc.) as points of reference, practical illustration and departure which just won't fly my posting here for many reasons I'm
not gonna get into.

I have copied over your analysis to the "Faction-Balance" section of our project's design doc-bible. Will also eventually incorporate in one of our wiki.articles on the topic (along with other contributions you made in the RTS Future thread).

We'll be opening up our new ARTS game development site some time next month. I'll send you a PM invite on that occasion, as you might find it of
interest and, of course, your input would be welcome and appreciated if you choose to give it..

I now retreat to 100% pure, & infrequent, Lurker status. Which will be something new & singular for me as I've been anything but for a decade.
With a poignant irony, I can now relate to a score of other "old WZ horses" (folks instrumental in WZ's practical fate for many years) who have also found it essential to cross that threshold even though interest in the game had not waned or what they had to offer with their proven abilities. Guess the less I frequent the less I'll have to bite my tongue when there is something quite useful to offer. And. in all truth, that is no good way to be which in turn I feel must be taken for an omen to set this particular culture type firmly aside...

Regards, whipper.
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