ECM - Electronic Counter Measures

[Per]

Visibility in Warzone is actually quite complex. However, this complexity was not utilized very well in the published version. It seems obvious, though, that they planned an expansion or a future new version that would have more complicated visibility rules. Each droid and structure in the game has built-in sensor with range and power that it uses to look for other game objects with. Each object also has a calculated ECM value, which stands for Electronic Counter Measures. ECM reduces the ability of enemy sensors to detect you. In short, makes you invisible. In the published version, ECM was unused. It looked like ECM was to be another add-on to droids, like turrets and bodies. Then there is code that makes it look like they wanted ECM to be a separate droid type, like sensor droids, constructor droids, cyborgs and so on. Maybe they had not made up their collective minds yet.

In any case; I recently committed a small change that put ECM to use. If your ECM power rating is higher than enemy sensor power ratings, then the range that they can see you from is reduced by a third. It is but a small start - we should come up with a better algorithm eventually. Suggestions welcome. I also added a small change to the ECM power rating of cyborgs so that they now always have better ECM than the sensor power of other units, effectively giving other units one third lower range against cyborgs. Since cyborgs were said to be underpowered, I figured this was a good way to test this new feature Let me know if anything breaks or becomes unbalanced by this.

One extension I would like pursue is to add research items that would improve the ECM rating of tank droids and cyborgs (and buildings?). We will need a decent PIE for ECM to show in the research panel, though.

Your comments on how we should continue to develop the ECM concept are most welcome.

[Rman Virgil]

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* OMG, Per.... this is HUGE in WZ's evolution... absolutely PIVOTAL to advanced RTS GPMs.

* WHY ?

* Becuase it is  totally the key to implementing Asymetric Warfare gameplay  in WZ.

* Elsewhere I've used an analogy from Chess to illustrate what a quantum leap this is to enhancing genuine Tacs & Strats beyond mass-tank rushes as well as the concept of "Asymetric Warfare"....

* That analogy is a player exceuting the Queens Gambit against an equally strong player who has NOT made an egregious mistake (this is to clearly distinguish the situation from a "Fool's Mate") & that player having a decent chance of prevailing in the end game.

* There's is so much more to this.... I'll come back to it later.

* One thing I'll say in parting here  is - you guys are taking-on the semblance of the second coming of Pumpkin Studios.

- Cheers, RV

[kage]

i think the first step towards a comprehensive end-goal is to remove sensor range altogether -- use only sensor power.  the further from the source that a wave travels, the less power it has per given cubic area (this doesn't matter for in-game calcs), but more importantly, it implies that few waves reflecting off an object further away will return to the source.

in other words, just make a simple algorithm, could be linear or logarithmic (always decreasing), to determine sensor power at a distance. when that sensor power is nearly zero, just round down, and that's the limit on effective range. now, at any range, if the ecm of an object is greater than the sensor power at that range, the object wont be detected.

as an example, if a sensor unit has a base sensor power of 5000, but at a range of 300 meters, the sensor power is reduced to 250, then if an object 300 meters distant has an ecm value of 260, it wont be detected, though if it begins to come closer, eventually it will be detected.

the suggestion above is very simple (perhaps not to implement), but at least allows relative response at any range, and with any ecm / sensor power (or sensor range) ratios, whereas the 1/3 range reduction is definitely a step in the right direction, but, for example, an ecm of 500000 would only reduce the detection range of a 150-unit powered sensor by one third.  eventually, we could take into account type of detection based on sensor ecm ratios (does it just give a radar blip, or can you determine what it is), and the nuances of active detection vs passive detection (active detection, like radar, can give your sensor unit's position away, while passive detection can only pick up electromagnetic emissions), and active ecm vs passive ecm (active ecm lets the enemy know that you've got an expensive unit *somewhere* in the area, but makes sensor locks, and self-guided weapons almost useless, while passive ecm is very stealthy, and, while much much harder to engineer, still makes self-guided weapons useless, but doesn't 'tell' the enemy that you're in the area).

[DevUrandom]

[me=DevUrandom]throws in cloaking-units. Though that might be a little bit more difficult. Maybe they cost energy when on...[/me]

[Per]

I really like your ideas, kage.

I'd like to hear some suggestions for new ECM techs - with names, costs and placement in tech tree. But please keep it simple as a start, no new advanced functionality.

ECM is cloaking for all practical purposes. Warzone does not separate sensor detection and visual detection, so if your sensors are blinded, you really are blind.

[EvilGuru]

as an example, if a sensor unit has a base sensor power of 5000, but at a range of 300 meters, the sensor power is reduced to 250, then if an object 300 meters distant has an ecm value of 260, it wont be detected, though if it begins to come closer, eventually it will be detected.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Regards, Freddie.

[DevUrandom]

ECM is cloaking for all practical purposes. Warzone does not separate sensor detection and visual detection, so if your sensors are blinded, you really are blind.

Sorry for being cryptic. Meant units which cloak others as well.
Sensor jammers which act reduce the sight of a specific sensor sound nice, too.

[kage]

without going into implementation details, and using the proposed system of simple ecm vs sensor power calculations, i think the laser/energy weapon tech should be pushed into a parallel branch to the heavy projectile branch and the rocketry branch, as opposed to being purely s3 -- laser/energy, as a branch, wouldn't have nearly as much variety or overall 'firepower' as the others, but would have much greater accuracy (which would especially help after the engine was switched over to a pure collision detection system), but would be augmented with detection dampening tech.

when you study lasers for a long enough time, you figure out what absorbs and diffuses light well, and what doesn't, hence you are more knowledgable about how to construct materials that would absorb electromagnetic radiation, or otherwise scatter it in a way that makes your unit appear similar to natural terrain when scanned. thus, with a re-arrangement of the tech tree, you could put one or two small ecm-absorbtion tech items that would go with general sensor upgrades (thus are easily available to all players), but put the vast majority within the laser branch.  such a tech advancement would just cumulatively increase the existing ecm-value already in warzone for every unit by a percent.

additionally, the possibility of high-precision laser-based sensors exclusive to the laser branch could go along with eventually possible engine enhancements such as distinguishing movement vs size/shape detection (though such things may not be worth the effort or within the scope of wz's gameplay).  ideally, the world of electronic warfare would have emitters (sensors, jammers, even 'engine noise' in the form of infrared radiation) and absorbers, which are materials which make detection from sensors more difficult -- if and when such a system gets discussed or established in code, it is a reasonably simple process to create interactions between all these things that are purely mathematic, highly scalable, and with very few edge conditions (thus few bugs).  the only difficulty in all that is designing a gui to display 'electronic warfare', and the nuances involved therein, in a sensible and useful way.

one thing to note: with the above suggestion of branching laser tech away from the mainstream, i feel somewhat that it would make warzone too similar to the feel of nickel-and-dime rts games.  it certainly doesn't matter in the campaign, since you have enough time to research every single thing, but since multiplayer games presumably are over before all of the tech tree has been researched, such a design decision could imbalance things severely.  saying that, i would like to hear from a lot of the old school warzone gamers who've done a lot of multiplayer stuff, and would know especially well what would make or break the feel, uniqueness, and balance of warzone.

[Rman Virgil]

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* I lke your concepts too Kage but as you wisely recognize, they just scratch the surface of this profound topic.

* I've mentioned Asymetric Warfare Principles here & elsewhere several times to no traction - I may as well be speaking "in tongues" it seems. Which leads me to believe that there are none yet who have a clue 'bout what I'm talking about. That is easily remedied as there are a wealth of resources on the web that'll get you educated on the topic which if your gonna be dealing with ECMs you'd best be well versed on.

* I'm not gonna get into implementaion details here & now as i'm reserving those for a non-WRP release down the road.

* But this much I will say that may "blow your mind" & be of use to your efforts...

* 1.) The original WZ SP Cam is built ENTIRELY on "Asymetric Warfare Principles" - yes that is so (which couldNOT be translated to MP because they were scriptomatically achhieved).

* 2.) The translation to MP was gonna be predicated on ECMs implementation.

* 3.) ECMs are intimately tied to your "Treat Assessment" schema.

* 4.) When Pumpkin conceived ECMs they were NOT aware of "Micro Airborn Recon Drone" Tech.... THAT has to be accounted for in ECMs for them NOT to be percieved as shallow & bogus.

* 4.) WZ MP veterans have an investment in WZs flawed GPMs (they've mastered the limited winning strats, afterall). They likely will be resistent to those flaws being addressed (I would NOT include such MP masters as 4nE in that category but he is unusual in that he's ready & willing to follow a re-mastery path that evolved GPMs will necessitate).

- Cheers RV

[Deathguise]

In the published version, ECM was unused. It looked like ECM was to be another add-on to droids, like turrets and bodies. Then there is code that makes it look like they wanted ECM to be a separate droid type, like sensor droids, constructor droids, cyborgs and so on. Maybe they had not made up their collective minds yet.

I think from looking at ECM & Templates.txt that they probably intended to implement both: one being an internal component like autorepair and the other a turret that im guessing would provide ECM coverage over an area as opposed to single unit coverage that an internal component would provide.

As for names i guess it would be okay to call an ECM turret a radar jammer as for an internal component i have no idea.
Tech tree location i think should be close to the first Sensor Upgrade which i think is T2 and possibly any upgrades nearer to the wide spec sensor/EMP research.

Anyway a question: you mentioned you improved the cyborgs ECM power rating was the original value 50 by any chance?

[Per]

Right now I would like to implement ECM as non-disruptively as possible to everything else in the game, to get it implemented and tested as easily as possible. So I would rather avoid coupling introduction of ECM with a huge re-arrangement of the tech tree.

An ECM droid, similar to the current sensor droid, may be a good idea. Also ECM turrets. Yes, I think the original cyborg rating was 50.

I think we need both range and power, since together they can define a linear function that gives power at a given distance from the ECM source. An ECM droid might have high power, but low range, giving a high drop-off rate to its ECM effect, while a turret might have very high range and low ECM, giving vast coverage but low effect anywhere within its area of effect.

In the longer run we may consider different kinds of sensors and stealth, for example separating between visual, other electromagnetic waves (radar) and mechanical waves (sound). Electromagnetic waves are good for detail and accuracy, but usually require line of sight. Motion sensors based on sound waves propagating through the ground do not have such restrictions, and might, for example, easily pick up moving droids burdened with heavy ECM equipment... But that is just something to think about, I will not try to implement anything like that now.

[Deathguise]

Right now I would like to implement ECM as non-disruptively as possible to everything else in the game, to get it implemented and tested as easily as possible. So I would rather avoid coupling introduction of ECM with a huge re-arrangement of the tech tree.

I agree the tech tree is quite messy.

I think we need both range and power

I agree including range will i think be quite crucial to both maintaining ballance and making ECM worthwhile.

Something else to think about is what units appear on the radar display (mini-map), and i assume the current ECM units do.

[Rman Virgil]

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* K... allow me to  converse with meself one last time before I relegate this to  die-hard tunnel-vision.

* The physics 101 not withstanding...

* If ECM's donot take into account present proven MARD Tech then WZ 2100 shifts notably from a Science Fiction context to one of Fantasy. While I'm a fan of both I do believe in WZ's SciFi underpinning being preserved.

* As far as totally ignoring Asymetric Warfare in your understanding of WZ GPMs, well, all I can say is it's really best to know when a cul de sac is just round the corner, especially if its not well lit.

- l8r, RV

[DevUrandom]

Sorry, Rman, but I don't get your point.
You mean we should pay more attention to current stealth technology when designing this, so we look more like SciFi?
You also say we don't understand what asymetric warfare is? Or how it is applied to WZ?

Maybe you can be the light at the end of the tunnel to us...

[Rman Virgil]

Sorry, Rman, but I don't get your point.
You mean we should pay more attention to current stealth technology when designing this, so we look more like SciFi?
You also say we don't understand what asymetric warfare is? Or how it is applied to WZ?

Maybe you can be the light at the end of the tunnel to us...

* First Dev - I donot matter. Call me Joe Smoe or Mickey Mouse. It's not the messenger, it's all about the message.

* All you guys are very smart & know what resources are at your fingertips..... ie.: Google, Wikipedia, How Stuff Works & so on.

* Just use 'em.

* Look-up "Asymetric Warfare".... &  "Micro Air Recon Drones".

* While "Stealth Tech" is not rendered entirely obsolete - it clearly is NOT the end all be all of 21st Century Warfare.

* I'm not here to argure about it or play borderline cutsey flame skirmishes.

* A forum to me is still what it began as in the agora of anchient Athens: a place for brains to fully engage thru conversation for both on-going education & the sheer joy of being alive & able to think & laugh.

* Ultimately it is your perogative to do WTF you want & I really do respect that.... truelly.

* However, if I engage in conversation, I'm gonna be open to the full gamut of six-hat thinking and every resource available (on & off the net) that will support or not support a PoV. I do model my modus directly on evidence-based medicine (my formative background is in the microbiology of infectious disease).

* So... i'm all into continuous learning, enjoying the process, shareing & laughing with my peers (with or without beers). I can be irreverent but I'm not malicious. And bottom-line for me - above talent, above intelligence, above encyclodepic knowledge, above good looks - is common courtesy as concieved & articulated by Thomas Jefferson.

* If you did a little research on the above mentioned topics - I guarantee you would not regret a minute of it.

* And I'll leave it there for the moment.

- RV