Whole game rebalance?

[Terminator]

Agree with Kamaze. Balance is last thing on what WRP need to work or fix or change. Better to leave in for a while at leave all like in original 1.10 by Pumpkin St.

[Serman]

VTOLS using non-bomb weapons (such as mini-pods instead of cluster bomb) should have unlimited ammo, but a much slower reload time, and less damage.

Weapons such as Bombard Mortar look horrible, as if they sink into the body it's mounted on. I believe they should be revamped, and raised a bit.

The Design section should be organizable, and be able to fit more designs, as for someone like me, i use very diverse units in combat.

[DFStormbringer]

[Posted this part in anotehr topic that had sarted but its reliven here as well so im goign to copy it and add to it then go from there.]

theres just SO much imbalance to the game... that makes ALOT of the tech useless.
Moarters..
half tracks,
light cannons....focus on that end of the tech tree youll have mediums not long after.
Angel missiles, Archangel missiles with 20% more damage and 3 times the range is right after it.
Cyborgs..weaker and slower then vehicles so i NEVER use them
Emp weapons, GREAT potential there but too far down the tree and overly unfair when you get them.
Thermal/flamers great damage early on but absolutly no range and thus never get to hit anything unless they get by the other stuff shooting it first which means they are too tough to take any real damange from the flamer any ways.
Small rocket artillery and rocket towers.. lancers make them both obsolete fast and are only 2-3 researches from the rockets
Castles/Super hardpoints, big.. slow.. expensive.. and incapable of holding its own.. using those 4 spots to build 4 hardpoints puts out alot more croud control then a single castle ever does.
AA..  i build a few of the first model.. then the whirwind much later inthe tech tree as the cyclone is a waste of resources.. the missiles are too slow to compare to the guns.. and lazers are just TOO damaging to be fair for AA and by then ive got so many of the whirlwinds i dont NEED the advanced stuff to take out light vtols.
Weapon encampments. same attack stats of thier hardpoint counterparts same resources just less hitpoints, useless.
Command turret.. you have to click EVERYTHING for the linked units to attack it..as adressed the AI on it just isent smart.. they are nice int he campaign but are useless in a multiplayer game vs 7 oponents.
Nexus turrets, such potential here but so far downt he tech tree.. and the resistance circuits make them able to be countered some.. by this time youve already got extreme range artillery.. and nobody ever gets close enough to your base for it to be used...

to this copy and paste im adding vtol towers and vtol CB turrets and towers.. both massivly useles s for the most part as your artillery deals with most of what vtols could by the time they are available.
=================================
FIXES>. well possible fixes.

vtol turrets shoul dbe muved WAY up i nt he tech tree and be available when the vtol factory  is  researched.. making the vtol sensors usabale when you can build vtols.

The whines about weapon/vehicle speed and imbalances..
Weapons AND bodies are classified into 3 groups.. light medium and heavy.
Build on that and have where ANY body building over its weight class gets a sever penalty...
IE a light body tries to carry a lancer.. it gets 100% movement.. it tries to carry a tank killer.. its movement gets dropped to 50%.. making it alot harder to get into range or out of range eliminating its "hit and run" abilities.. especially with tracks on it.. its dumb enough to put a scourge on that tiny body and it gets dropped to a mere 10% movement rate.. not stationary.. but you realize you woul dhave been better off spending the resources on a hardpoint or researching and building  bigger vehicles.  medium bodies can carry medium turrets.. and carry light turrets and even get a 10% speed bost from the to help counter thier weaker damage.. heavys carry all 3 classes. being aready slow get no penalties.. but get a 10% boost from mediums.. and a 30-50% boost from light turrets. sure they are lighter and faster an cheaper but weaker and need mroe built to deal out the same damage.

multi turrets.. too hard to effectivly work into an already IMO beyond flawed code and would only make balance issues more complicated... the only exception to this is as i stated over 5 years ago.. mobile fortress or other super vehicle that takes ungoldy amount of time to build an research.. even then you only get 1-5 of them at a time.. but would still cause balance issues as it has to be powerfull enough to make it worth chosing to spend the time on a 5 turret fortress over just 5 cheaper tanks wiht the same turrets... but make it weak enough where it can be destroied.

AA vs vtols.
NEVER played vs pvp in WZ before.. sorry im a neglected player >.< but from what ive noticed... building 10 AA around yoru base even T1 aa is enough to really put a hamper on any vtol attack wave.. unless its 30+ units.. then your out resourced any way...  and yes and no the later ones are too strong.. love my whirlwinds... lazers are BY FAR to powerfull for AA.. and the missiles while do damage.. are horribley slow to fire and track.. giving the attacker plenty time to drop its plyload and do damage.. so the missiles are actually imo rather fair.
As for the vtols beign too weak??  with 8 derrics.. i can usualy hit the lazer tech tree in 50 minutes...and 10 vtols wiht lasers on them can do some SERIOUS damage.. 30 will clean out any good sized base as logn as you focus on taking out the aa first.

Whining about the imbalance between Mgs and cannons...  place a hmg hardpoint next to an enemy heavy cannon hardpoint.. IF you somehow have enough trucks to actually survive building the thing.. that HMG is still going down because a fully upgraded heavy cannon devestates on damage compared to an HMG.. which is how it should be.. the examples your giving is 30+ units of hmgs vs a starting base... sorry but 30+ of any unit vs  a weak base is fubared from the get go.

Anotehr thing that amuses me is the LACK of knowledge about the game some of you posters seem to have.. one of the devs even admits he doesent even play the game at all...
seems a bit rude to say but it brings up a point..

Rankings.. Yes they CAN transfer. as noted.. bring a unit in for recycling and it can be upgraded to a better unit...
YES they are improved through rank..  without upgrading ANY weapns.. compare a veteran or higher rank unit to a similiar unit of no rank and you will notice the vet holds alot more accuracy.. the problem is this becomes vastly negligable 20+ min into the tech tree when the accuracy upgrades come out and nearly every sh*t hits its mark boosing the stats including NOT damage.. but reload and armor through the ranks will give them an apparent advantage over similar units of lesser rank..
The complaints about hero being too hard to reach, well being the benefits are for the moment useless whats it matter how hard it is to reach?  i think the points needed for the ranks are fine..  at 2-3000 kills per 8player battle this means youll at best get 2-4 hero units per game.. and if thier benefits are fixed.. heros are going to be without doubt ungodly.. meaning to keep it fair yould only want 2-4 any ways as they would be near impossible to kill.
As for the whine of not having a factory near by to recycle too..  want everything easy dont you?? OMG you have to drive your unit back to you rbase or a foreward base to recycle and rebuild...  not like your going to upgrade during an attack on an enemies base!  its alwasy during a lul or after an attack.. which you NEED to do to repair your other units any ways!  Why repair them? because you are trying to get them to LAST to get those nifty rank upgrades!  so take the drive back.. or you can always  build a mini base by a derrick to help supply your front lines... OMG  STRATEGY IS INVOLVED!

Fortresses.. just get rid of the vile things.. they hold no use and would be nearly impossible to decently ballance.

Bunker busters.. early on your main defence are bunkers.. the only "easy" way through them is bunker busters... later downt he line.. bunkers are more cannon fodder as the hardpoints are the real threat so with bunkers becomming useles.. the bunker buster becomes useless.
Bunekrs vs cpu still hold ALOT of weight becuse believe it or not.. a T1 mg bunker has 3-4 times the hit points of a gauss cannon hard point.. meaning placing a couple bunkers infront of your defensive line will cause the cpu to attack the healty HP bunkers leaving your hardpoints safe to cause their damage.

Someone made a comment about alowing the flak aa cannons hit ground as wel as air units..
the Mg bunker.. tower.. hmg hardpoint.. rotary bunker.. assault and dual assault gun emplacemets and hard points as well as the small rocket artillery ALL fire at BOTH air and ground units

variable propulsion methods..
im shocked NOBODY has mentioned walking tanks.. 2 legs for light units.. and a quadriped for lugging around the heavier weapons. being a walker unit it could give them a variety of terrain to bypass.. like walking past emplacements and tank traps.. or even causing trample damage to some units and buildings.

the satelite building and strike...  as stated it MIGHT have some use early in a t3 game.. BUT.. ALL i have EVER found it usefull for.. is targeting the 30+ T1 trucks some computer openents seem to get clustered into their bases as the weapon is too weak to take out any buildings or decent units... so get rid of it and use the space for something else.

Someone mentioned upgraded buildings... and fancy add ons.. I AGREE!
At the MASSIVE risk of rippng off other RTS games out there.. hey WZ wass the first in 3d so they all in their own ways ripped off warzone..
Possible "shield" units.. or as stated.. and incorperating the rock paper scisrs theory.. have MGs be able to shoot down missiles... they do in the real military after all.. called phalanx.. look it up.  have the lazers be able to shoot down certain slug ammo... and the rockets becuase of  able to intercept lasers.
wouldnet mind being able to place sensors.. vtol pads.. or turrets on buildings themselvs.. theres plenty room on research centers for add ons.. onteh roof.. and on the tanks that are added on later.

Ballence further for the vehicle bodies by TYPE...
going off the R,P,S system... have the lights EARLY in the tech tree for all 3 classes..
One is resilliant vs energy weapons.. one is great agsint  explosives like missiles and moarters.. the thirdt is great agsint kenitic weapons.. mgs.. howitzers.. cannons. but all 3 are WEAK vs the other 2 types meaning they still die easy but specialize vs that one type whis the are VERY resiliant agsint.. forcing the oposing team to SPREAD out their research to all types of weapons as opposed to only one area of the tech tree..
medium bodies come after a while in tech 2 of the tree.. and heavy bodies come twards the end of the tech tree..
The dragons will have a SIGNIFICANT armor boost and will be NOT as resistant as the other 3 armors they specialize in ..  say.. only 50% resistance as opposed t the others 75%.. BUT they will be resiliant in all 4 types of damage.. making them overall better then the specialized units.. unless your opponent is only covering the one branch of the tech tree then the specialized units are still best.

to the whines about scourge beign too much... well gauss cannons have more range then any other hardpoint..and also have modest damage.. only thing ive seen do mroe damage is the heavy and pulse lasers which  REALLY is a fluke.. 2 shots from a heavy lazer will destroy anything... the kicker is they have almost no range.. and their Rof is embarasing.. the lazers really need a weapon thats a high rate of fire wiht decent range OTHER then the flashlight which i still think needs tobe earleir int he tech tree... spread the lasers out and give them variety?? whats teh difference between a heavy and a pulse any ways?both have such short range its hard to tell.. otehr then  neither have hardpoints.

Have to go for now.. but expect MUCH more from me here 

[DFStormbringer]

PS... on the apparent and understandable concerns about the escision to either A stick with the basics and not muck wiht the gameplay.. or B.. head off in a new direction wiht th egame.. or C.. make it a mod...  modding it IS at first.. the easiest and most ligical way to approach the matter but unfortunatly.. sites like gamespy and other primary online servers dont count mods as part of thier MP usability...

solution.. a tiny it more time consuming but viable...
2 versions of the game.. WZ2100  and another "updated" version.. called 2110 or 2100 "ressurection"  you get the idea...  and 90% of he work is done on the upgraded version... being the ONLY thing that can be modiefied and still leave the "purists" happy for the 2100 updates is things like improved AI.. pathfinding fixes and some graphical updates and fixes which would all be done on the  newer game.. and just have to be worked into the basic 2100 version..  sure.. it adds a tin bit more work  having to patch 2 versions.. but being most the work done to FIX the "basic" problems for the new version will still apply to the old version its not that much work.. and wiht a new updated name.. it will give the new version a chance to get into its OWN mainstream light and get servers on the popular hosting sites and thus be able to get the support thats needed to help further the project as a whole.

[Watermelon]

=================================
FIXES>. well possible fixes.

vtol turrets shoul dbe muved WAY up i nt he tech tree and be available when the vtol factory  is  researched.. making the vtol sensors usabale when you can build vtols.

The whines about weapon/vehicle speed and imbalances..
Weapons AND bodies are classified into 3 groups.. light medium and heavy.
Build on that and have where ANY body building over its weight class gets a sever penalty...
IE a light body tries to carry a lancer.. it gets 100% movement.. it tries to carry a tank killer.. its movement gets dropped to 50%.. making it alot harder to get into range or out of range eliminating its "hit and run" abilities.. especially with tracks on it.. its dumb enough to put a scourge on that tiny body and it gets dropped to a mere 10% movement rate.. not stationary.. but you realize you woul dhave been better off spending the resources on a hardpoint or researching and building  bigger vehicles.  medium bodies can carry medium turrets.. and carry light turrets and even get a 10% speed bost from the to help counter thier weaker damage.. heavys carry all 3 classes. being aready slow get no penalties.. but get a 10% boost from mediums.. and a 30-50% boost from light turrets. sure they are lighter and faster an cheaper but weaker and need mroe built to deal out the same damage.

it's not going to be easy to classify the weapons into light,medium.heavy,but we can use a weight limitations on light,medium.heavy bodies to make certain weapons only available for medium/heavy bodies.

There is an unused property of body called 'engine output'(you can see its value in design screen),maybe giving some kind of bonus based on engine output will help the heavy bodies a bit,though wz's body properties is kinda flawed and some early game bodies have equal or more engine output than late game ones...

multi turrets.. too hard to effectivly work into an already IMO beyond flawed code and would only make balance issues more complicated... the only exception to this is as i stated over 5 years ago.. mobile fortress or other super vehicle that takes ungoldy amount of time to build an research.. even then you only get 1-5 of them at a time.. but would still cause balance issues as it has to be powerfull enough to make it worth chosing to spend the time on a 5 turret fortress over just 5 cheaper tanks wiht the same turrets... but make it weak enough where it can be destroied.

Actually I found multi-turret droids are underpowered...they took very long time to build because the weapons cost alot more power and buildpoint(time) than both body and propulsion...
the logics of 1 tank with 5 turrets vs 5 tanks with 1 turret is like this:
1.fire power and survival:
5tanks:you lose 20% of total fire power when you lose 1 tank
1tank:you lose 100% fire power when you lose 1 tank
2.focus fire:
5tanks:impossible to focus without wasting firepower
1tank:easily focus-fire-able
3.speed:
5tanks:decent
1tanks:slow as hell because of the weight of 5 turrets
4.HP:
5tanks:5 bodies + 5 propulsion + 5 turrets
1tank:1 body + 1 propulsion + 5 turrets
5.costs:
5tanks:1.2x-1.5x of the costs of 1tank,because bodies and propulsion are really cheap compare to weapons in warzone.

AA vs vtols.
NEVER played vs pvp in WZ before.. sorry im a neglected player >.< but from what ive noticed... building 10 AA around yoru base even T1 aa is enough to really put a hamper on any vtol attack wave.. unless its 30+ units.. then your out resourced any way...  and yes and no the later ones are too strong.. love my whirlwinds... lazers are BY FAR to powerfull for AA.. and the missiles while do damage.. are horribley slow to fire and track.. giving the attacker plenty time to drop its plyload and do damage.. so the missiles are actually imo rather fair.
As for the vtols beign too weak??  with 8 derrics.. i can usualy hit the lazer tech tree in 50 minutes...and 10 vtols wiht lasers on them can do some SERIOUS damage.. 30 will clean out any good sized base as logn as you focus on taking out the aa first.

I think 1 AA site will never shoot down 1 medium body vtol in time...

Whining about the imbalance between Mgs and cannons...  place a hmg hardpoint next to an enemy heavy cannon hardpoint.. IF you somehow have enough trucks to actually survive building the thing.. that HMG is still going down because a fully upgraded heavy cannon devestates on damage compared to an HMG.. which is how it should be.. the examples your giving is 30+ units of hmgs vs a starting base... sorry but 30+ of any unit vs  a weak base is fubared from the get go.

Anotehr thing that amuses me is the LACK of knowledge about the game some of you posters seem to have.. one of the devs even admits he doesent even play the game at all...
seems a bit rude to say but it brings up a point..

I believe that all devs do play wz,though wz's gameplay system is too huge for most ppl to get familar with...

Rankings.. Yes they CAN transfer. as noted.. bring a unit in for recycling and it can be upgraded to a better unit...
YES they are improved through rank..  without upgrading ANY weapns.. compare a veteran or higher rank unit to a similiar unit of no rank and you will notice the vet holds alot more accuracy.. the problem is this becomes vastly negligable 20+ min into the tech tree when the accuracy upgrades come out and nearly every sh*t hits its mark boosing the stats including NOT damage.. but reload and armor through the ranks will give them an apparent advantage over similar units of lesser rank..
The complaints about hero being too hard to reach, well being the benefits are for the moment useless whats it matter how hard it is to reach?  i think the points needed for the ranks are fine..  at 2-3000 kills per 8player battle this means youll at best get 2-4 hero units per game.. and if thier benefits are fixed.. heros are going to be without doubt ungodly.. meaning to keep it fair yould only want 2-4 any ways as they would be near impossible to kill.
As for the whine of not having a factory near by to recycle too..  want everything easy dont you?? OMG you have to drive your unit back to you rbase or a foreward base to recycle and rebuild...  not like your going to upgrade during an attack on an enemies base!  its alwasy during a lul or after an attack.. which you NEED to do to repair your other units any ways!  Why repair them? because you are trying to get them to LAST to get those nifty rank upgrades!  so take the drive back.. or you can always  build a mini base by a derrick to help supply your front lines... OMG  STRATEGY IS INVOLVED!

I think EvilGuru is working on a partial kill experience system,which will make getting higher levels easier...

Fortresses.. just get rid of the vile things.. they hold no use and would be nearly impossible to decently ballance.

Bunker busters.. early on your main defence are bunkers.. the only "easy" way through them is bunker busters... later downt he line.. bunkers are more cannon fodder as the hardpoints are the real threat so with bunkers becomming useles.. the bunker buster becomes useless.
Bunekrs vs cpu still hold ALOT of weight becuse believe it or not.. a T1 mg bunker has 3-4 times the hit points of a gauss cannon hard point.. meaning placing a couple bunkers infront of your defensive line will cause the cpu to attack the healty HP bunkers leaving your hardpoints safe to cause their damage.

yes mg bunker is hax...probably the most durable high-density defensive structure in warzone...

Someone made a comment about alowing the flak aa cannons hit ground as wel as air units..
the Mg bunker.. tower.. hmg hardpoint.. rotary bunker.. assault and dual assault gun emplacemets and hard points as well as the small rocket artillery ALL fire at BOTH air and ground units

I think mg should do more damage to vtol...i think currently it does 5% to vtol type...

variable propulsion methods..
im shocked NOBODY has mentioned walking tanks.. 2 legs for light units.. and a quadriped for lugging around the heavier weapons. being a walker unit it could give them a variety of terrain to bypass.. like walking past emplacements and tank traps.. or even causing trample damage to some units and buildings.

i think the animation of legs will be the hardest part.

the satelite building and strike...  as stated it MIGHT have some use early in a t3 game.. BUT.. ALL i have EVER found it usefull for.. is targeting the 30+ T1 trucks some computer openents seem to get clustered into their bases as the weapon is too weak to take out any buildings or decent units... so get rid of it and use the space for something else.

i think Troman increased its power a bit...better radius and damge iirc

Someone mentioned upgraded buildings... and fancy add ons.. I AGREE!
At the MASSIVE risk of rippng off other RTS games out there.. hey WZ wass the first in 3d so they all in their own ways ripped off warzone..
Possible "shield" units.. or as stated.. and incorperating the rock paper scisrs theory.. have MGs be able to shoot down missiles... they do in the real military after all.. called phalanx.. look it up.   have the lazers be able to shoot down certain slug ammo... and the rockets becuase of  able to intercept lasers.
wouldnet mind being able to place sensors.. vtol pads.. or turrets on buildings themselvs.. theres plenty room on research centers for add ons.. onteh roof.. and on the tanks that are added on later.

wz buildings can only hold one functionality at a time,so that's not possible without massive changes.

Ballence further for the vehicle bodies by TYPE...
going off the R,P,S system... have the lights EARLY in the tech tree for all 3 classes..
One is resilliant vs energy weapons.. one is great agsint  explosives like missiles and moarters.. the thirdt is great agsint kenitic weapons.. mgs.. howitzers.. cannons. but all 3 are WEAK vs the other 2 types meaning they still die easy but specialize vs that one type whis the are VERY resiliant agsint.. forcing the oposing team to SPREAD out their research to all types of weapons as opposed to only one area of the tech tree..
medium bodies come after a while in tech 2 of the tree.. and heavy bodies come twards the end of the tech tree..
The dragons will have a SIGNIFICANT armor boost and will be NOT as resistant as the other 3 armors they specialize in ..  say.. only 50% resistance as opposed t the others 75%.. BUT they will be resiliant in all 4 types of damage.. making them overall better then the specialized units.. unless your opponent is only covering the one branch of the tech tree then the specialized units are still best.

there are only 2 types of damage:kinetic and thermal,anything except flame weapons are kinetic.(explosive got removed by pumpkin according to the source)

to the whines about scourge beign too much... well gauss cannons have more range then any other hardpoint..and also have modest damage.. only thing ive seen do mroe damage is the heavy and pulse lasers which  REALLY is a fluke.. 2 shots from a heavy lazer will destroy anything... the kicker is they have almost no range.. and their Rof is embarasing.. the lazers really need a weapon thats a high rate of fire wiht decent range OTHER then the flashlight which i still think needs tobe earleir int he tech tree... spread the lasers out and give them variety?? whats teh difference between a heavy and a pulse any ways?both have such short range its hard to tell.. otehr then  neither have hardpoints.

Have to go for now.. but expect MUCH more from me here 

not sure about the laser,because I rarely reach that tech level in most games I played.

anyways,keep new ideas coming  ;D

[bormoth]

V=A*Vp*E*max( 1 , Mb/(Mt+Mp) )
where:
V   - overall velocity
Vp - propulsion velocity
E   - engine output
Mb - body weight(a.k.a. weght that it can mount without penalties)
Mt - turret weight
Mp -propulsion weght
A   -free parameter for making averall speed playable

So for
Light bodies E>>Mb
Medium        E ? Mb
Heavy         Einferno>plasmite flamer

plasma ranged strong! heavy body weapon

now comes artilery
  mortar   -make small splash and splash burning like phosphor bombs but smaller range best for light to medium
  howitzer-only more damage low heavy
bombs
phosphor- i think good, if you want make more damage but it's only support role, very good for light viecles
thermite - make them 2 in pack or more fast recharge rate best for medium viecles
plasmite -didn't used them caus wasn't thought good about thermite, but i  think make more recharge rate best   
             for heavy bodies
Ok i think u tired from me but if u need I can make such listing for other weapons.
plasmite

[Watermelon]

Posting current speed formula as reference:

PPRM = PropulsionPowerRatioMultiplier

[name],[type],[PPRM]
Wheeled,GROUND,80
Tracked,GROUND,80
Legged,GROUND,100
Hover,GROUND,120
Ski,GROUND,100
Lift,AIR,130
Propellor,AIR,100
Half-Tracked,GROUND,80
Jump,AIR,200

speed = PPRM * engineoutput / weight

if vtol and medium body then speed * 3/4
if vtol and heavy body then speed * 1/4(this one is ridiculous imo...)

hmm looks like engineoutput is used atm but it's named as poweroutput/bodyPower for some weird reason...

[Kreuvf]

I only read the first post, so perhaps some things have already been said.

This game is very imbalance in my opinion,not just the stats of different parts/components,but the game mechanics is broken too.

It's not very imbalanced. If you had ever played Warzone in MP on an appropriate map (2 players on 2-player-map...), you would know better. In every "age" (I regard the synaptic link technologies as key-technologies and compare them to the "ages" in e.g. Age of Empires) there are specific weapons which maybe only niche-weapons, but are highly effective, if you use them right. It took me years to even understand parts of the huge techtree and what the creators of the techtree thought when arranged the different research topics in the tree.

List of imbalance/game mechanics flaws:
1.Unit rank/experience:
Honestly I dont know what bonus your unit gets for getting higher rank,but the current rank/experience system is useless because by the time you have few 'experienced' units of a type,the type is probably very outdate rendering the unit rank/experience useless.Also the 512 kills hero is absurd...

If this was a technical debate e.g. over Windows vs. Linux, I'd say "This is FUD.". Your units at least get higher damage reduction (the damage that is dealt to the units after the armor has been substracted is reduced by 6 percent-points for every level). Also, you can recycle your units and through by doing this produce new units that already have high-end-stuff + rank. So I really don't know where there is a flaw or whatever in it.

2.Resource system:
You have 4 oil derrick at the start of a game on any? map.Basically every additional oil derrick you control you only have 25% more resource income compare to a 'turtle' player and you'll need to build sparse defensive structure to defend remote oil derrick,in most other RTS games,every 'expansion' you control your income is doubled or maybe tripled,so this greatly encourage 'turtling at main base and tech' and inevitably lengthens the duration per game in wz.

It's the problem of the aggressor, if he/she is unable to break a defense when you own more than 50% of the map (hey, turtling players can't control that much of the map). You just need to know how to crack your enemy's defense. And the expansion-problem is map-design-based and does not have to do with the inner workings of warzone. Just create some maps and place some more oil on it. Or take old ones and add additional oil to it.

3.Attack damage/Armor system:
Some weapon type/armor type counters are too 'hard',like machine gun only deals very little damage to bunker and flame weapon only deals 5% damage to 'hardpoint defensive structure'.Also there are some pointless weapon types like bunker buster.

That's the idea behind it. Mini-pod rockets and MG should be useless vs. bunkers while flamers and bunker busters cut through them like a hot knife through butter. It's your problem if you don't know what your enemy is doing, intelligence is 50% of the game.

4.The uselessness of VTOL:
I never played MP games online,but I think they are useless in MP unless your opponent is too stupid to build some anti-air units/structures when there is a sign of VTOL massing.They cost alot,deal little damage because of ammo limitation,take forever to rearm and the rearm pad itself costs a fortune...

Did you ever use your VTOLs with VTOL Strike Towers? They are still expensive and attacking with them with the enemy having lots of AA may be tactically bad. But did you ever use those fiery bombs vs. artillery sites or bunkers or cyborgs? And now don't say "Cyborgs are too weak.". They are strong enough, they just need another bonus, I suggest a speed increase so they walk up to 5% faster than the fastest tank.

5.The Commanders:
I am not sure what they can do except remotely targeting for artillery units,sort of useless too.In my opinion,the commander should be sort of special unit who can gain experience by commanding(gets experience from the units it leads kill),the commander itself should be either a super unit or a leader type with the ability to inspire nearby units and the experience of a commander should really improve the commander's leadership/firepower or maybe some stats and visual changes.Once killed,they can be rebuilt without experience losses,since this kind of 'miracle' is definately explainable with the technologies in wz time.

They increase the hit-chance of attached units, they may be used as gathering points for cyborgs/tank/vtol factories so newly built units are automatically attached, they automatically send damaged units back to repair AND they get them back to the front-line. That artillery-stuff is imho a neat feature but not what they are meant to be used for.

My solutions:(noob's who never played MP point of view)
1.Experience transfer system,all units have the ability to transfer/exchange experience level ability,so you can transfer the experience/rank from outdated units to newly built units,thus making ranking/experienced unit preservation more useful and eventually making high level units possible.(not very hard to do in source imo)

This is already possible, just recycle your units. So this really is not hard at all to do in the source code.. even I could do this as it does not require a single modification (at least if the original mechanics on this have not been replaced after liberation)

2.Maybe 'super neutral oil derrick' in remote locations.(map and data change?)

Would be a nice idea, but why not just use two or three derricks?

3.Stats tweaks.

Only slight ones, if any.. and make sure to keep track of them, please.

4.More ammo/less HP?

Why? Units aren't that hard... k, if your enemy has Vehicle Armor Upgrade Mk5 your MG won't do much against it.. but hey, this is your fault, isn't it?

Probably the ppl who plays wz MP regularly/frequently are ideal person for balancing suggestions and such,so correct me if anything listed above doesnt exist in MP or it's total bullsh1t. 

Imho: Wait for more players to come and play the game and then do small changes only (WHILE KEEPING TRACK OF THEM!) would be best.

[DFStormbringer]

i can only suguest ideas.. you guys are the programmers.. and up to you to know whats viable or not.

seems like to fix alot of the flaws.. some day were going to have to find some people with the brass to break down and just work on new coding with a new gaming engine..
i know thats the no no talk.. but to be honest from all that ive been readon from you guys about all the limitations and flaws int he code... im starting to wonder if getting your hands on a free base game engine and starting from there wouldnet be less work int he long run... if not less work at least easier.

as for finding it difficult to classify weapons.. for the most part.. imo thats easy.. as most the weapons have 3 forms..  light cannon med cannon heavy cannon...  theres 3 rail guns.. 3 lazers..  3 rockets.. 3 moarters.. 3 flamers, 3 howitzers not counting the indirect damage infernal..  most of it is grouped in 3s ranging in order of damage from weakest to hardest hitting.

spent most the night thinking of ideas.. instead of sleeping like i wanted too...
had a lovly idea about merging the satelite strike building.. the sat scan upling buildign and the HQ into one buiding that could be upgraded making that only one alowed HQ alot mroe usefull to build and actually defend.. but that got shot down being told that buildings can only have one role.... unless.....
addon parts that can ONLY be build adjascent to thier required buildings?


thought on helping to make the satelite strike mroe usefull...
have it fire off multiple times instead of just once... first shot hits where targeted.. the remainder of the shots hit in a random location within a certain radius of the origuinal hit.. and it keeps firing till  a certain requirement is meant.. say..the death of 1 building , death of 3 units.. or 30 seconds pass..  this way it gaurentees at least something dies when used on a base... but if shot out int he open where nothing is hit.. say.. a chokepoint.. it can be used to prevent soeone from crosing a gap but only for 30 seconds before it overheats..
Then thought  there could be some researches that alow the blast radius of the beam to be more focused and less random.. sattelite targeting accuracy so to speak..  just a thought.

Custom music.. if its allright with the workers here.. i know of 2 sites where  people make and post thier OWN music for people to listen to for free.. and have forums that alow for requests and other  such tidbits..  www.KFMF.org and www.ocremix.org

OCremix for those that dont know is a seite spesializing in composers posting thier own versions of popular video game music and is a HIGHLY reccomended site.. with your guys permission id like to post there to ask if there would be anyone would be interested in making some "unified" music for WZ2100..  just another thought.

[Watermelon]

I only read the first post, so perhaps some things have already been said.It's not very imbalanced. If you had ever played Warzone in MP on an appropriate map (2 players on 2-player-map...), you would know better. In every "age" (I regard the synaptic link technologies as key-technologies and compare them to the "ages" in e.g. Age of Empires) there are specific weapons which maybe only niche-weapons, but are highly effective, if you use them right. It took me years to even understand parts of the huge techtree and what the creators of the techtree thought when arranged the different research topics in the tree.

the huge techtree is the problem,it makes the learning curve of wz mp tediously long.

If this was a technical debate e.g. over Windows vs. Linux, I'd say "This is FUD.". Your units at least get higher damage reduction (the damage that is dealt to the units after the armor has been substracted is reduced by 6 percent-points for every level). Also, you can recycle your units and through by doing this produce new units that already have high-end-stuff + rank. So I really don't know where there is a flaw or whatever in it.

during a fierce battle,you have the time to babysitting your highly decorated units one by one and send them to factory for recycle?

It's the problem of the aggressor, if he/she is unable to break a defense when you own more than 50% of the map (hey, turtling players can't control that much of the map). You just need to know how to crack your enemy's defense. And the expansion-problem is map-design-based and does not have to do with the inner workings of warzone. Just create some maps and place some more oil on it. Or take old ones and add additional oil to it.

repairing buildings costs zero power in warzone,that's what makes the defensive structures so good...

That's the idea behind it. Mini-pod rockets and MG should be useless vs. bunkers while flamers and bunker busters cut through them like a hot knife through butter. It's your problem if you don't know what your enemy is doing, intelligence is 50% of the game.

if the counter logics really exists in wz:then what is extremely vulnerable to mini-pod rockets?

Why? Units aren't that hard... k, if your enemy has Vehicle Armor Upgrade Mk5 your MG won't do much against it.. but hey, this is your fault, isn't it?

I meant more ammo for vtol weapons and less hp for vtol propulsion/increase anti-vtol damage multifier

Imho: Wait for more players to come and play the game and then do small changes only (WHILE KEEPING TRACK OF THEM!) would be best.

i think even the most talented rts players shy away from understanding warzone's huge techtree and innumerable components...

[Watermelon]

i can only suguest ideas.. you guys are the programmers.. and up to you to know whats viable or not.

seems like to fix alot of the flaws.. some day were going to have to find some people with the brass to break down and just work on new coding with a new gaming engine..
i know thats the no no talk.. but to be honest from all that ive been readon from you guys about all the limitations and flaws int he code... im starting to wonder if getting your hands on a free base game engine and starting from there wouldnet be less work int he long run... if not less work at least easier.

we have the source now,and it's released as the best license available.The flaws are slowly being fixed over time...

as for finding it difficult to classify weapons.. for the most part.. imo thats easy.. as most the weapons have 3 forms..   light cannon med cannon heavy cannon...  theres 3 rail guns.. 3 lazers..  3 rockets.. 3 moarters.. 3 flamers, 3 howitzers not counting the indirect damage infernal..  most of it is grouped in 3s ranging in order of damage from weakest to hardest hitting.

currently there is no way to tell if a weapon is a light/medium/heavy,weapons are simply classified as types,e.g:EMP,MISSILE,ENERGY etc

spent most the night thinking of ideas.. instead of sleeping like i wanted too...
had a lovly idea about merging the satelite strike building.. the sat scan upling buildign and the HQ into one buiding that could be upgraded making that only one alowed HQ alot mroe usefull to build and actually defend.. but that got shot down being told that buildings can only have one role.... unless.....
addon parts that can ONLY be build adjascent to thier required buildings?


thought on helping to make the satelite strike mroe usefull...
have it fire off multiple times instead of just once... first shot hits where targeted.. the remainder of the shots hit in a random location within a certain radius of the origuinal hit.. and it keeps firing till  a certain requirement is meant.. say..the death of 1 building , death of 3 units.. or 30 seconds pass..  this way it gaurentees at least something dies when used on a base... but if shot out int he open where nothing is hit.. say.. a chokepoint.. it can be used to prevent soeone from crosing a gap but only for 30 seconds before it overheats..
Then thought  there could be some researches that alow the blast radius of the beam to be more focused and less random.. sattelite targeting accuracy so to speak..  just a thought.

there is nothing impossible with the source gifted by pumpkin/eidos,it's just a matter of time to get something done...though most of developers dont want to clash with original community,which is sort of nostalgia i think...I am probably one of few ppl who dare to implement new features and make radical changes to source,and I will less likely to take the flak,since I never get involved in the original community.

Custom music.. if its allright with the workers here.. i know of 2 sites where  people make and post thier OWN music for people to listen to for free.. and have forums that alow for requests and other  such tidbits..  www.KFMF.org and www.ocremix.org

OCremix for those that dont know is a seite spesializing in composers posting thier own versions of popular video game music and is a HIGHLY reccomended site.. with your guys permission id like to post there to ask if there would be anyone would be interested in making some "unified" music for WZ2100..  just another thought.

I think there are already proposals of custom warzone music by vary users/artists,not sure which ones will be made into the game though.

[bormoth]

Posting current speed formula as reference:

PPRM = PropulsionPowerRatioMultiplier
speed = PPRM * engineoutput / weight

if vtol and medium body then speed * 3/4
if vtol and heavy body then speed * 1/4(this one is ridiculous imo...)

It would be wise to make such penalties not only for vtols
so as a result we don't want to heavy bodies with better weapons move at the same speed.
where can i get bonuses for weapons via body weight?
whanna make some ballance calculations where should i send suggestions?
(not like mak it stronger or weaker,but like make flamer stronger for 5 dmg for example)

[Kreuvf]

the huge techtree is the problem,it makes the learning curve of wz mp tediously long.

Imho this is a problem of the liberated version of the game. The original warzone had the campaign that more slowly introduces new technology and even dedicates videos to explaining the use of them. The huge tech-tree itself is not the problem, the problem the explanation of this tree is missing and newbies surely are lost. It's a design/userfriendlyness-problem, not a problem of the game balance. But at least I agree that the 'unexplainedness' of the tech-tree poses a major obstacle to newbies.

during a fierce battle,you have the time to babysitting your highly decorated units one by one and send them to factory for recycle?

That's what commanders are for.. and if they don't do it in time, you surely would not have been able to so, too.

repairing buildings costs zero power in warzone,that's what makes the defensive structures so good...

I agree with the point 'zero-repair is not fair'. But I still don't agree with 'turtle-players > non-turtle players'.

if the counter logics really exists in wz:then what is extremely vulnerable to mini-pod rockets?

This is a misunderstanding. I never wrote that every weapon has an extremely vulnerable 'victim'. Mini-pod-rockets are useful vs. tanks, but are not seen that often in MP due to the fact that you get the far better Lancer AT-rocket just three researches afterwards, and Lancer is imho one of the weapons that have to be worked on, perhaps placing it somewhere later in the techtree, so the transition period from mini-pod to lancer is not just five minutes, but perhaps fifteen minutes instead.

I meant more ammo for vtol weapons and less hp for vtol propulsion/increase anti-vtol damage multifier

VTOLs are pretty expensive, lowering their hp will weaken them to a point where you may only use them as a luxurios toy for base defense utilising VTOL Strike towers. The mg-type aa-weapons (Hurricane, Cyclone and Whirlwind) are strong enough to stop incoming VTOLs... your aim as defending party should be to decimize the enemy vtol-fleet, not to wipe it out after the first wave. Later on SAM and Laser AA are very strong and imho a bit overpowered

i think even the most talented rts players shy away from understanding warzone's huge techtree and innumerable components...

As I said before this is a usability-problem, not a balancing-problem. The intelligence-screen (that reticule button with that map on it) should become the help-tool #1 for newbies. And additionally it should tell you what upgrades exactly do (e.g. Armor-Upgrades increase armor by 30%-points based on the original armor with every upgrade...) and perhaps some kind of techtree-tool (like that one in Age of Empires: Age of Kings for example).

The one big problem you pointed out is the lack of information new players get. And I totally agree with you that this is a problem. Imho this even is the #1-problem (besides all those bugs and stuff).

[DFStormbringer]

well is there a way to "fix" the  "global tech tree info" pannel then?
it seems to pretty much stop showing the explinations of what techs are done only after 3-4 pages of research...
If its easy to modify and have it where after its researched it groups and organizes the data.. and gives a more "detailed" explination of the upgrade.. AND possible basic tips on how to use the item.. that might help the learning curve.

have it group the MG upgrades togeather.. list a time it was researched.. and what stat boosts it gives. and so forth..
For totally new tech like the strike tower give a simpel description and say something like causes all linked Vtols to attack enemy vehicles within sensor range.

This coupled with a rather basic game guide that explains the buttons..  the commands and what not.. and add that help file in text format woth the game.. then your off to a healthy start to  smoothing out that learning curve.


As for the tech tree being too big?? the tech tree and unit customization is the MAIN thing that gives this game its charm and the only really unique thing left in warzone.
You dont like researching for 4-5 hours.. start out on a T3 game.
That option is there for a reason.

[Watermelon]

@bormoth:
not sure what you mean by bonus via weight,there is no weapon damage bonus from body if that is what you mean.

just post the balance changes suggestions there,I am sure it will be made into game if the balance problems are confirmed.

@Kreuvf:
commander doesnt auto-acquire targets,so they are pretty useless unless you click enemy target one by one manually.

if the mini-pod is just a prerequisite for lancer,then why does it exist in the first place?currently it does nothing but making the techtree bigger and accessing lancer more complicated for those who dont understand techtree well.

what I was trying to point out is that 90% of the components(esp weapons) are pointless and useless,hence they are relatively weak compare to the strong ones being used by most players,and they more or less increase the complexity of the techtree and component prequisites.There is no faction or whatever at this stage,so the balance problems only exist in the dps/power ratio difference of different components.

here is an example of the imbalance between minipod and medium cannon using a simple formula to get costs factor,the less the better:

minipod: damage:20*2 ROF:60 per minute power:75 buildpoints:375 body:5

costs factor = power+buildpoints/damage*ROF/60 + body = 45

medium cannon: damage:70 ROF:13 per minute power:125 buildpoints:500 body:350

costs factor = power+buildpoints/damage*ROF/60 + body =  1.7

even though this is sort of statistics,but it still reflects the serious imbalance of effectiveness of power costs between components.

@DFStormbringer:I will see if I can use the on-mouse-over tooltips in design screen on other buttons/gui elements.