New Weapons!

[Olrox]

Three fundamental issues:

1)Cyborgs move at 400.
->Impossible to retreat from.

2)Cyborgs are very inexpensive, thus they are not worth sniping.
->Epitome of human wave attack.

3)SRMA is short-range indirect-fire, and Cyborgs are very small targets.
->Extremely difficult to land a hit, given high arc at short-range.

1- Not really. I'm pretty sure that a bug hover with a light weapon can run very fast, especially with decent engine upgrades.

2- That's why the sniper gun isn't inteded to clear a whole damned huge company of cyborgs, but to soften the attack until they get into machinegun's range, or just to take out small companies. A 8 Sniper gun bug wheels group should be really inexpensive and would effectively take out at least 6 cyborgs/volley if balanced in the way I've got in mind.

3- What about a group of cyborgs? You seem to consider a single cyborg or a large wave of them whenever it comes handy, that's annoying.

I can't believe I'll have to read from you again, TVR. It's sad, to say the least. I beg of you, please make your statements in a clear way and try not to come up with exacerbated amounts of fluff, it definetely ends with any improvement idea. If your solution proposal is to leave things as they are - hell, then keep playing this version and let people who want to improve the game doing so, for the sake of the resurrection, which is in fact the name of this project, not by coincidence, I say.

[Zarel]

1)Cyborgs move at 400.
->Impossible to retreat from.

They have a theoretical max speed limit of 400. Because of engine and weight considerations, my cyborgs end up moving around as fast as wheels... and I'm not even talking about heavy cyborgs.

(Preliminary calculations tell me they should be moving at 119, which would explain the slowness, but I think I might be missing something in the formula.)

3- What about a group of cyborgs? You seem to consider a single cyborg or a large wave of them whenever it comes handy, that's annoying.

Also a good point. Note that Seraph is a splash weapon.

and let people who want to improve the game doing so, for the sake of the resurrection, which is in fact the name of this project, not by coincidence, I say.

Actually, a while ago, we renamed the project to "Warzone 2100 Project", no resurrection, because we are now improving the game, not restoring it.

[TVR]

... Not really. I'm pretty sure that a bug hover with a light weapon can run very fast, especially with decent engine upgrades. ...

Hover has a propulsion velocity cap of 300, Cyborgs have a propulsion velocity cap of 400.

Cyborgs also happen to be more durable than light vehicles, not as pervasively affected by congestion, and can be airlifted.

... A 8 Sniper gun bug wheels group should be really inexpensive and would effectively take out at least 6 cyborgs/volley if balanced in the way I've got in mind ...

As have been proposed two potential maximum ranges: equal to AT-rockets, or greater than visual range, I shall explain the reason for which long-range direct-fire against Cyborgs is ineffective for both.

The key issue common to both is the tight integration of focused fire into Warzone 2100, the entire concepts of the Commanders' laser designator, and sensor-based designation.

AT-rockets are effective at their range as they can easily withdraw after the attack, as tanks are only as fast or slower.

But given this sniper turret against high-speed Cyborgs, there is insufficient time to carefully select each sniper and designate an individual target before being overrun.

At beyond-visual-range, there is a requirement of using a commander as a forward observer, unfortunately the commander can only designate one Cyborg at a time, which implies an intense overkill ratio of >2x (8x for 8 snipers), versus >1x for anti-tank rocket volleys.

... What about a group of cyborgs? ...

Withstanding an extensive click-per-minute capability rivalling those of 'professional RTS players', SRMA batteries suffer from single-point focused fire for which destroys but ~3 Cyborgs per volley.

[Olrox]

Yes. 3 cyborgs/volley for each battery, even a small number, like 5, will, by your numbers, take out 15 cyborgs. And, presuming you're intelligent enough, you'll be using blended defenses. As I must say, like the third time, those weapons aren't supposed to be exclusively used, no weapon used exlusively is as effective as a mixed, balanced force.

Those are for weakening the attack forces, not for eradicating the attack forces, which is, in my point of view, the duty of cannons, machineguns and flamers mainly.

[TVR]

It's 3 Cyborgs per volley regardless of the number of SRMAs.

For further information, consider utilizing an online translator on my previous post.

[Zarel]

1)Cyborgs move at 400.
->Impossible to retreat from.

They have a theoretical max speed limit of 400. Because of engine and weight considerations, my cyborgs end up moving around as fast as wheels... and I'm not even talking about heavy cyborgs.

(Preliminary calculations tell me they should be moving at 119, which would explain the slowness, but I think I might be missing something in the formula.)

...

[Olrox]

It's 3 Cyborgs per volley regardless of the number of SRMAs.

For further information, consider utilizing an online translator on my previous post.

Yeah, I live in Brazil, so we don't have english schools here, just a hell of a lot of trees and monkeys and bananas. We are used to sell children for food also, and I didn't have the chance to complete basic scholarship. That's why I can't read nor write in english properly, I'm too dumb, yes. That's why you've got all the reason.

ass****.

[Avestron]

When you group units, such as when you attach units to a commander, the units can tend to move at below max speed, perhaps that is sometimes at play when moving cyborgs.

Also perhaps the mounted weapons affect speed.

I must be frank - I never understood why cyborgs are faster than tracked vehicles. I always felt that cyborgs should be cheaper, closer packed and slower than most units - with regular cyborgs falling somewhere between tracked and half-tracked, and heavy cyborgs falling in a category slightly slower than tracked - to compensate I feel that units should have size modifiers on their avoidance rates

-10% superheavy
-05% heavy
+-0% medium
+05% light/ heavy cyborg
+10% cyborg

This over and above any bonuses for movement, would help compensate for max speed loss.

[Olrox]

The mounted weapon definetely affect speed, yes.
Probably the best explanation for cyborgs to be quicker than most vehicles is that they have hydraulic actuators attached to their armoured suit. But still, for rough terrain, they should have a larger mobility penalty, as they couldn't just drive over most obstacles like tracked vehicles.

[Zarel]

When you group units, such as when you attach units to a commander, the units can tend to move at below max speed, perhaps that is sometimes at play when moving cyborgs.

Also perhaps the mounted weapons affect speed.

I only had two flamer cyborgs selected. They weren't grouped.

I took weapon weight in account during the calculations.

[Avestron]

Yes bipedals would be affected by very rough terrain (slopes) - not so certain about cyborgs being affected just for being off-road - bipedal motion would greatly compensate for surface irregularities.

Oh and if they were all flamer cyborgs then thats different - were they close enough to each other to interfere with each others' movements?

[Zarel]

No.

I did forget about terrain modifiers, though. I'll have to look at that. Regardless, the point is that cyborgs don't move fast enough to catch up to wheels in the earlygame.

[TVR]

... Regardless, the point is that cyborgs don't move fast enough to catch up to wheels in the earlygame. ...

SRMA isn't available in early game either, yet is less effective against Cyborgs in T3 than the mortar is in T1.

... Probably the best explanation for cyborgs to be quicker than most vehicles is that they have hydraulic actuators attached to their armoured suit ...

The maximum velocity of articulated movement is not based on torque or cycle time, but rather stability.

At velocities exceeding those of certain aircraft, a perturbation such as a sinkhole or a bullet is guaranteed to result in tripping.

[Olrox]

Oh, and if they have hydraulic actuators, it won't make them more stable, considering that they are carrying heavy equipment?


Hell, I think that I'll need to make things by myself, or die watching people whining over original ideas. Those weapons are going to be in a mod rather than in the game core, sooner lor later - I think. Why don't we test it out ingame before continuing this... (ah, there isn't a word ugly enough to match the content...) conversation?
Or just go over my pacifying attempt, I'm awfully used to it anyway.

[lav_coyote25]

Why don't we test it out ingame before continuing this...

(ah, there isn't a word ugly enough to match the content...) conversation?

Or just go over my pacifying attempt, I'm awfully used to it anyway.

there is now.... TIAWUETMTC

xD