Rebalance 2.3.5

[Germanium]

Hi Zarel and other folk,

this might sound like a rant while you read it, but it is not since i back my point of view with arguments. As i am not a guy form the first hour i have learned from other people - mainly truckspin - that you, Zarel, are one of the good rebalance guys and were the one who we all thank for the current balance of stuff in the game. Unfortunately i believe you think rebalancing is a permanent job, while it isn't. Once you have done your job, it does not require rebalancing. Why do i emphasize that? Because up to 2.3.4 (i am only playing since 2.1) you have done a good job and only a few minor areas were a little awkward.

Now you have done a lot of rebalancing in the 2.3.5 rc2 release. While i think the merge of mini-pod and lancer was a good idea since nobody researched mini-pod heap damage anyways because the requirement for lancer was just heat mk3 and stabilized, the rest just isn't.
Why do you think you need to rebalance AA/VTOLs? Did you ever ask one of the real professional players? Well, since i guess not, i just give you my opinion. AA and VTOLs were perfectly balanced. And i think you rebalanced the stuff because so many people were crying about VTOLs or so many "no VTOL" games were hosted. Do you really think that those guys will have an easier life now? With all the easy AA techs? Apart from totally overdoing the Cannon AA (you will never need any other AA) it will just lead to longer games with looooong artillery wars which the people, that were crying and bitching so far, will always loose. Go ask someone of the pros if they think AA/VTOL were unbalanced. I do not know anyone that thought that. It required a brain though. A brain to understand that you will have to research AA (and more or less ALL the upgrades) and build them... plenty of them. Were this possible? Well, probably in 1v1 you can't easily do AA and VTOLs and Anti-Borg and Anti-Tank stuff at "perfect time" (the minimum time required to research something), but you could suceed and win over a guy that bascially just researched bombs/VTOLs. Again, a pro always keeps an eye on the opponent and sees what he builds and then focus his research on the counter. With your easy and overdone (and NO, i dont think a rebalance of the easy-to-get-AA will make it any better) new AA you currently removed the VTOL part of the game to a VERY high degree. And again, this will not make the game any better. Its just more annoying that professional players will need a longer game to win. Those crying and bitching people should have been told to ask in irc channels for help or even send to some clans for help.
As a thought for the future, i recommend doing a warzone2100-balance channel, invite only. And you pick some professional players like wisler, wardog, 3drts, truckspin, daltx, fastdeath, tmp, dylan (if he behaves) and even me (the list might not be complete, sorry to those i forgot) and discuss potential adjustments with them. I am sure everyone has some ideas to balance the game, like doing a +/- 5 percent here and there (e.g. +5 at cannons) and i guess most would have agreed about the mini-pod/lancer merge as well. With those guys above you would have a good cross section of low power and high power experts that can help balancing the game even better.

I am sorry, but the AA rebalance is neither needed, nor is the AA halfway balanced. It is easy to get - i understand that point in order to help noobs - but the upgrades currently seem (since there is no way for me to find the 2.3.5 rc2 tech tree) depend on Lancer/Cannon upgrades and that will overpower them by large amounts. Is it really necessary to have a perfect AA for just a approx. 1 min research (weapon + emplacement)? I think the game will loose its variety of technologies. In that case you can just do all weapons versatile which is just as bad.

I really urge you to rethink this rebalance and consider my recommendation of the balance channel. If you don't like me or others - just dont invite them, but confer just with the best.

Thanks, rbl-Lucky Luke

P.S.: Just thought i should add a big THANKS so far for the time and effort of the devs.

[KukY]

Unfortunately i believe you think rebalancing is a permanent job, while it isn't. Once you have done your job, it does not require rebalancing. Why do i emphasize that? Because up to 2.3.4 (i am only playing since 2.1) you have done a good job and only a few minor areas were a little awkward.

Well, maybe that is because he doesn't rebalance the whole game at once, but one part of it. Also, when WZ changes in any way, new rebalancing may be needed. So, it is a 'permanent job'.

As a thought for the future, i recommend doing a warzone2100-balance channel, invite only. And you pick some professional players like wisler, wardog, 3drts, truckspin, daltx, fastdeath, tmp, dylan (if he behaves) and even me (the list might not be complete, sorry to those i forgot) and discuss potential adjustments with them. I am sure everyone has some ideas to balance the game, like doing a +/- 5 percent here and there (e.g. +5 at cannons) and i guess most would have agreed about the mini-pod/lancer merge as well. With those guys above you would have a good cross section of low power and high power experts that can help balancing the game even better.

I don't know about you, but I think that many regular players of WZ wouldn't like if the game was changed in order to fit the requests and oppinions of several best players of WZ, which play the game in much diffrent way then a regular player.
Zarel does the balancing job great himself.

I am sorry, but the AA rebalance is neither needed, nor is the AA halfway balanced. It is easy to get - i understand that point in order to help noobs - but the upgrades currently seem (since there is no way for me to find the 2.3.5 rc2 tech tree) depend on Lancer/Cannon upgrades and that will overpower them by large amounts. Is it really necessary to have a perfect AA for just a approx. 1 min research (weapon + emplacement)? I think the game will loose its variety of technologies. In that case you can just do all weapons versatile which is just as bad.

Well, I like the new AA changes.

[Germanium]

Well, maybe that is because he doesn't rebalance the whole game at once, but one part of it. Also, when WZ changes in any way, new rebalancing may be needed. So, it is a 'permanent job'.

I guess you didnt get my point. The game in general was balanced in 2.3.4 and only minor stuff needed to be done. And what wz changes currently in progress do require rebalancing? Redoing the netcode? redoing the lobby? Do you know what you are talking about?

I don't know about you, but I think that over 20 thousand players of WZ wouldn't like if the game was changed in order to fit the requests and oppinions of several best players of WZ, which play the game in much diffrent way then the major audience of 20 thousand mentioned players.
Zarel does the balancing job great himself.

Zarel has done the balance job very well so far. But there are nowhere near 20k players in Multiplayer. And to be true, in single player you can do 1v7 ais with any balance currently (it doesnt matter if you take 2.3.4, 2.3.5, 2.2.4 or 1.1). What really requires balancing are multiplayer games and so far it were well balanced (in general). And the idea of a balance channel was not that the professional players dictate Zarel what to do. It was to give Zarel realistic and trustable input.

Well, I like the new AA changes. I am part of those 20 thousand players I mentioned.

As i said, noobs might like the changes. Because they think it will change a lot. You would still not be able to beat any one of the above mentioned players. But maybe you would not loose by VTOL attacks.

[KukY]

As i said, noobs might like the changes. Because they think it will change a lot. You would still not be able to beat any one of the above mentioned players. But maybe you would not loose by VTOL attacks.

Noobs are the majority of players. That is my point.

[Wisler]

Hi Zarel and other folk,

this might sound like a rant while you read it, but it is not since i back my point of view with arguments. As i am not a guy form the first hour i have learned from other people - mainly truckspin - that you, Zarel, are one of the good rebalance guys and were the one who we all thank for the current balance of stuff in the game. Unfortunately i believe you think rebalancing is a permanent job, while it isn't. Once you have done your job, it does not require rebalancing. Why do i emphasize that? Because up to 2.3.4 (i am only playing since 2.1) you have done a good job and only a few minor areas were a little awkward.

Now you have done a lot of rebalancing in the 2.3.5 rc2 release. While i think the merge of mini-pod and lancer was a good idea since nobody researched mini-pod heap damage anyways because the requirement for lancer was just heat mk3 and stabilized, the rest just isn't.
Why do you think you need to rebalance AA/VTOLs? Did you ever ask one of the real professional players? Well, since i guess not, i just give you my opinion. AA and VTOLs were perfectly balanced. And i think you rebalanced the stuff because so many people were crying about VTOLs or so many "no VTOL" games were hosted. Do you really think that those guys will have an easier life now? With all the easy AA techs? Apart from totally overdoing the Cannon AA (you will never need any other AA) it will just lead to longer games with looooong artillery wars which the people, that were crying and bitching so far, will always loose. Go ask someone of the pros if they think AA/VTOL were unbalanced. I do not know anyone that thought that. It required a brain though. A brain to understand that you will have to research AA (and more or less ALL the upgrades) and build them... plenty of them. Were this possible? Well, probably in 1v1 you can't easily do AA and VTOLs and Anti-Borg and Anti-Tank stuff at "perfect time" (the minimum time required to research something), but you could suceed and win over a guy that bascially just researched bombs/VTOLs. Again, a pro always keeps an eye on the opponent and sees what he builds and then focus his research on the counter. With your easy and overdone (and NO, i dont think a rebalance of the easy-to-get-AA will make it any better) new AA you currently removed the VTOL part of the game to a VERY high degree. And again, this will not make the game any better. Its just more annoying that professional players will need a longer game to win. Those crying and bitching people should have been told to ask in irc channels for help or even send to some clans for help.
As a thought for the future, i recommend doing a warzone2100-balance channel, invite only. And you pick some professional players like wisler, wardog, 3drts, truckspin, daltx, fastdeath, tmp, dylan (if he behaves) and even me (the list might not be complete, sorry to those i forgot) and discuss potential adjustments with them. I am sure everyone has some ideas to balance the game, like doing a +/- 5 percent here and there (e.g. +5 at cannons) and i guess most would have agreed about the mini-pod/lancer merge as well. With those guys above you would have a good cross section of low power and high power experts that can help balancing the game even better.

I am sorry, but the AA rebalance is neither needed, nor is the AA halfway balanced. It is easy to get - i understand that point in order to help noobs - but the upgrades currently seem (since there is no way for me to find the 2.3.5 rc2 tech tree) depend on Lancer/Cannon upgrades and that will overpower them by large amounts. Is it really necessary to have a perfect AA for just a approx. 1 min research (weapon + emplacement)? I think the game will loose its variety of technologies. In that case you can just do all weapons versatile which is just as bad.

I really urge you to rethink this rebalance and consider my recommendation of the balance channel. If you don't like me or others - just dont invite them, but confer just with the best.

Thanks, rbl-Lucky Luke

P.S.: Just thought i should add a big THANKS so far for the time and effort of the devs.

I totally agree...the vtol elementof the game was in perfect balance thats why me and truck kept telling them not to change it when they asked us.

I greatly apreciate all the devs do since we would have no game without them but i think they seriously need to do one of two things.

1. Play the game more themselves in actual games so they can see what is balanced/needs changing.

2. listen to the people who play the game most which they did not this time.

P.S.pls dont ban me xD

[cybersphinx]

Why do you think you need to rebalance AA/VTOLs? Did you ever ask one of the real professional players?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6278

[Wisler]

Why do you think you need to rebalance AA/VTOLs? Did you ever ask one of the real professional players?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6278

I have neve rplayed a game with anyone who posted in that thread.

[KukY]

I have neve rplayed a game with anyone who posted in that thread.

Well, you could have posted.

[Wisler]

I have neve rplayed a game with anyone who posted in that thread.

Well, you could have posted.

This new AA came about when i beat zarel with vtol, he asked my opinion on it i said bad idea.

[Rman Virgil]

.

Zarel's strategy is basically that followed by commercial-professional game developers-distributors for many of the reasons KuKy already spoke to.

They make their bucks from catering to the vaster majority & not a minority coterie of self-professed "professionals" (who make not a dime playing the game so what up with the misnomer ?).

The input of "pro" players in balance matters is actually taken with a huge grain of salt by commercial devs. & usually a red flag for how NOT to proceed.

I don't see why "pros" can't just play amongst themselves with whatever balance suits 'em. Heck, "pros" can make balance changes for themselves - it really doesn't require any codeing skills or extraordinary knowledge to do - time & concentrated effort mostly.

But we know why that last wouldn't work.

.

[Wisler]

.

Zarel's strategy is basically that followed by commercial-professional game developers-distributors for many of the reasons KuKy already spoke to.

They make their bucks from catering to the vaster majority & not a minority coterie of self-professed "professionals" (who make not a dime playing the game so what up with the misnomer ?).

The input of "pro" players in balance matters is actually taken with a huge grain of salt by commercial devs. & usually a red flag for how NOT to proceed.

I don't see why "pros" can't just play amongst themselves with whatever balance suits 'em. Heck, "pros" can make balance changes for themselves - it really doesn't require any codeing skills or extraordinary knowledge to do - time & concentrated effort mostly.

But we know why that last wouldn't work.

.

Another example of how a person who doesnt play the game thinks he knows better than those who do.

If you segregate the good players from newer players, there will be like 70% less games, so yeah great idea man

[Wisler]

.

Zarel's strategy is basically that followed by commercial-professional game developers-distributors for many of the reasons KuKy already spoke to.

They make their bucks from catering to the vaster majority & not a minority coterie of self-professed "professionals" (who make not a dime playing the game so what up with the misnomer ?).

The input of "pro" players in balance matters is actually taken with a huge grain of salt by commercial devs. & usually a red flag for how NOT to proceed.

I don't see why "pros" can't just play amongst themselves with whatever balance suits 'em. Heck, "pros" can make balance changes for themselves - it really doesn't require any codeing skills or extraordinary knowledge to do - time & concentrated effort mostly.

But we know why that last wouldn't work.

.

Another example of how a person who doesnt play the game thinks he knows better than those who do.

If you segregate the good players from newer players, there will be like 70% less games, so yeah great idea man

this game consists of 4 parts IMO structures, ground units, VTOLS and artillery.

If you take one of them out of the equation then bad things happen no matter what you say. When art was made overpowered even low oil games often came down to art war. Vtol trumps art now is art wars again.

I know you love to argue with me lol. but you cant really deny im right.

[Zarel]

Unfortunately i believe you think rebalancing is a permanent job, while it isn't. Once you have done your job, it does not require rebalancing.

This is true. Once balance is perfect, it should not be messed with.

However: The current Warzone is far from perfect. As resident balancer, I know this all too well. You yourself said that the rocket/mini-rocket tree merge was a good idea, so you clearly understand that there are still good changes to be made.

While i think the merge of mini-pod and lancer was a good idea since nobody researched mini-pod heap damage anyways because the requirement for lancer was just heat mk3 and stabilized, the rest just isn't.

I made and noted many changes besides simply the rocket merge and the new AA weapons, and you haven't mentioned those changes as well.

Could you please specify what you have against:
- ...the push of HMG to later-game?
- ...the pull of flamer to earlier-game?
- ...the buff to Heavy Laser?
- ...the slight buff to Avenger and Vindicator?
- ...the prerequisite of HQ for all weapon structures, rather than just MG tower?

Why do you think you need to rebalance AA/VTOLs? Did you ever ask one of the real professional players? Well, since i guess not, i just give you my opinion.

Yes, in fact. I have asked acidjnk (I can't remember if him or Weedle is truckspin), Wisler, 3dRTS, and WARDOG, to name a few. I would've consulted icefire as well, but I haven't seen him in a while. In fact, many of these players suggested many of the above changes themselves - for instance, 3dRTS suggested the buff to Avenger/Vindicator, and Wisler suggested moving flamer earlier-game.

Wisler was the only one very strongly against the idea of a change to VTOL balance, but I persuaded him to try it first before passing judgment.

After all, AA and VTOLs were pretty well balanced. But they weren't perfect. V weapons (weapons that can hit either ground or air) were a bit strong, for instance. Avenger and Vindicator were a bit weak.

But the main flaw I wanted to deal with was that there was only one dedicated AA weapon line for all of T1 and T2 - the Hurricane line. I wanted more strategy to early-game anti-air than simply just "spam upgrades for one weapon line". "More strategy" does mean disrupting the pretty good balance we currently have, but I think it'll be worth it.

And i think you rebalanced the stuff because so many people were crying about VTOLs or so many "no VTOL" games were hosted.

This is COMPLETELY FALSE.

As I said, I did not like the fact that there was exactly one AA weapon line in all of T1 and T2, but two more in T3. I didn't like having all the AA tech hidden way in T3 where no low oil T1 No Bases game would ever encounter them.

Apart from totally overdoing the Cannon AA (you will never need any other AA)

Thank you for the feedback; I've reduced its damage by 20% and increased its price by 12.5%.

it will just lead to longer games with looooong artillery wars which the people, that were crying and bitching so far, will always loose.

Anyone who doesn't protect their artillery with AA will lose it, anyway. Having greater choice in which AA to use shouldn't affect that.

Go ask someone of the pros if they think AA/VTOL were unbalanced.

WARDOG himself wanted a new air-to-air weapon. Just sayin'.

As a thought for the future, i recommend doing a warzone2100-balance channel, invite only. And you pick some professional players like wisler, wardog, 3drts, truckspin, daltx, fastdeath, tmp, dylan (if he behaves) and even me (the list might not be complete, sorry to those i forgot) and discuss potential adjustments with them. I am sure everyone has some ideas to balance the game, like doing a +/- 5 percent here and there (e.g. +5 at cannons) and i guess most would have agreed about the mini-pod/lancer merge as well. With those guys above you would have a good cross section of low power and high power experts that can help balancing the game even better.

I already have balance discussions fairly regularly in #warzone2100-games as well as on the forums; I see no reason to split it off into a different channel.

I have neve rplayed a game with anyone who posted in that thread.

You've never played with 3dRTS? o_O

[Wisler]

I have neve rplayed a game with anyone who posted in that thread.

You've never played with 3dRTS? o_O

Ok i played 3darts but thats only one lol..

[Zarel]

This new AA came about when i beat zarel with vtol, he asked my opinion on it i said bad idea.

Keep in mind that I had been thinking about changing up AA long before that game, and that I understood that my loss had nothing to do with underpowered AA, and these weapons wouldn't even have helped since I had fully upgraded Whirlwinds in that game, anyway. I know I lost because of my bad strategy; these balance changes have nothing to do with that game.