Unit formations

[Per]

we had formation speed limiting. It didnt work.

It was not limited to groups, though, which is what was suggested above, and which is much more sensible.

[Zarel]

The easiest way for formation speed limiting not to cause problems: Only speed limit the units within 2 tiles or so of the front. You don't even need to limit them to groups.

I had a similar idea to make sure commanders stay at the back.

[mrvn]

Just some random thoughts:

Other Formation: Circle segment (half / quarter circle) - A unit in the center of the circle will come under dealdy fire from all units at the same time. Place the center on a mountain pass and no unit will come out of it.

Usefull features:
- Automatically arange units by range of fire
- tighten / shrink formation as units die or return for repairs
- staggered moves - the last line moves to the front while the rest hold ground, every even lines moves 2 lines forward the rest holds ground. Only works with loose formations (like the staggered one above) because unis have to pass through the formation. Good for units that need to recharge. Frontline fires and recharges till it is their turn to move again. Advancing units can always fire.
- formation editor - There could be a UI to click together a formation on a grid or as abstract groups with the basic formations preset. The editor could include placement of units as well as type of units (direct / indirect fire units, sensor, commander, ...).

Movement options:
- Move as one fixed formation. Same shape, same speed, formation turns to face direction of travel. Slow to turn, needs lots of space. Good while attacking.
- Move individually but form formation on arival again. Good to go somewhere where the fighting will start.
- Mixed mode, move as formation when space allows, move individually to cross mountain passes. Probably best to choose with a hotkey (normal click moves as formation, Alt move individually.

Needed feature:
- Formations must coordinate movement between units. Moving by pushing others out of their way causes major choke points now and even deadlocks. In a formation that turns a corner the outer units must make a wider circle than the inner units with respective speed difference and so on.
- Formations should stay tight but also need to break apart to allow units to retreat. Usualy frontline units will retreat and right through all the ranks behind them. The ranks should open up to lett the unit pass and advance to fill the empty spot automatically and in a coordinated way. The current showing other units out of the way approach means too often the retreating unit is deadlocked and dies.

Requirements:
I think formations should requires something, cost something in the gameplay. Formations could be controlled by a commander. The commanders menu could have icons for the various formations and all assigned units would shape up that way. No comander means no formation. Kill the commander and the formation breaks apart.

EDIT:
Slightly off topic but I think relevant. How about subunits? Currently a unit can only belong to one group (hot key). I have my attack force assigned to the commander. Within that I have a group of maschine guns for defense and a group or mortars for attack. Would be nice if one could have hotkeys for all of them and individual groups.

Multi directional formations - A formation like the triangle above has a 120 degree symetry. If the formation changes direction slightly the triangle should rotate. If the formation changes direction a lot a different tip of the triangle could become the front.

Anyway, just food for thought. Not sure what is implementable of this.

MfG
Mrvn

[JDW]

Needed feature:
- Formations must coordinate movement between units. Moving by pushing others out of their way causes major choke points now and even deadlocks. In a formation that turns a corner the outer units must make a wider circle than the inner units with respective speed difference and so on.
- Formations should stay tight but also need to break apart to allow units to retreat. Usualy frontline units will retreat and right through all the ranks behind them. The ranks should open up to lett the unit pass and advance to fill the empty spot automatically and in a coordinated way. The current showing other units out of the way approach means too often the retreating unit is deadlocked and dies.

Yes! Very useful suggestions, I've been playing campaign recently, and i experienced a choke point in the last alpha mission caused by retreating units returning for repair. Was so frustrating to see. And I wasn't even able sort the mess out easily. Ended up having to self destroy medium damaged units so that the stronger ones could get to the battlefield in time!

[WarTux]

Yes! Very useful suggestions, I've been playing campaign recently, and i experienced a choke point in the last alpha mission caused by retreating units returning for repair. Was so frustrating to see. And I wasn't even able sort the mess out easily. Ended up having to self destroy medium damaged units so that the stronger ones could get to the battlefield in time!

You can help to avoid that via push and retreat tactics, but even then you can STILL get caught in a deadlock.

[JDW]

... but even then you can STILL get caught in a deadlock.

Shouldn't it not happen at all? Would formations help make things a smoother gaming experience?

[Assault Gunner]

Heck, I'd settle for lanes. As in, retreating tanks on this half of the road, advancing tanks on that half.
Lecture start!
Actually, WZ is unique in this problem, because it is the only RTS that I know of with autoretreat. No other major RTS that I have played has autoretreat, this being: SupCom, WarCraft 3, StarCraft, StarCraft 2 (Never played, but I know the game as well as possible without playing it. Same deal for SupCom 1 and 2.), and Halo Wars.
End of lecture.

[NoQ]

I would also suggest changing the density of the units. That is, units should try to get as close to each other as they can (for example, when breaking through a defense line) or try to be as scattered as possible (for example, when under attack by howitzers or bombers).

This seems to be much easier to implement (though i'm not sure).

[iwz]

Would formations help make things a smoother gaming experience?

Of course they would, but even before dealing with formations, WZ2100 needs to implement right-of-way and other inter-unit movement negotiation. As mrvn noted,

The current [shoving] other units out of the way approach means too often the retreating unit is deadlocked and dies.

In fact, units shoving each other out of the way has sometimes forced my artillery units, which I had ordered to hold position, to bumble into the thick of battle because of reinforcements coming up through them.

But, if I understand the devs correctly, fixing that kind of stuff is hard and time-consuming. So in the meantime, if we could just get large groups of disparate units to get to the same place at the same time, wouldn't you agree that that would be a great improvement over the current state?

I wonder if I should look for a "multi-unit pathing, movement, and right-of-way interaction" thread. I'm not sure if real formations depend on that improvement to maintain integrity, but I think that they do: otherwise one unit knocks another unit out of the way trying to stay in its place, and that unit goes flying off in that wide arc trying to circle back to its position and knocks another unit, spelling horror for any tight formation. Choke points, for example, could really force this issue.

[KenAlcock]

Just saw this thread for the first time. I understand that formations are bigger than a breadbox as far as ideas to implement. But there is one unmentioned useful unit formation--the skirmisher line. It is either directed left or right so as to concentrate fire potential toward the front of the formation or toward the direction named.

[JDW]

But, if I understand the devs correctly, fixing that kind of stuff is hard and time-consuming.

Yeah, I believe they are working on improving path-finding. It's a difficult problem to fix, but they'll surely get there eventually.