Confusion - Units are Manned or Unmanned?

[JDW]

I do not know why Cathuria's WZ concept art backdrops from a couple years back are still being posted as if they are the work of WZ creators, Pumpkin Studios, from 10+ years ago. The correct Pictorial reference, as already stated more than once here, is Pumpkin's own WZ 2100 Comic from 1999.

I understand that these are the original comics. But are you trying to point to something specific in those pages?

[Rman Virgil]

I do not know why Cathuria's WZ concept art backdrops from a couple years back are still being posted as if they are the work of WZ creators, Pumpkin Studios, from 10+ years ago. The correct Pictorial reference, as already stated more than once here, is Pumpkin's own WZ 2100 Comic from 1999.

I understand that these are the original comics. But are you trying to point to something specific in those pages?

Re-posted with relevant highlighting & added pointing-out arrows:

Cameron's designation of the Terminator as a "cyborg" was just flat-out incorrect based on his very own depiction within the movie. The correct term for the Terminator would have been "Android".

Since the movie was pure science fiction, we can always say "it would have been", "it should have been" , or "it could have been". As a storyteller, Cameron's use of the word 'cyborg' could be anything he wanted it to be in his fictional movie.

And so is Warzone2100, a purely fictional story. There's nothing real about it. Thank god for that!

Guess that's a fair re-statement of my original full statement:

Cameron's designation of the Terminator as a "cyborg" was just flat-out incorrect based on his very own depiction within the movie. The correct term for the Terminator would have been "Android". Perhaps Cameron just liked the sound of the word "Cyborg" better than "Android", maybe to his artist sensibilities he thought it was cooler or maybe there is much more of a film entertainment history with the word "Cyborg" than with "Android" so it made more marketing sense to cash in on that already built in audience that liked "Cyborgs". That's often the way chit is done in mass media entertainment

And

Also, the various & contradictory poetic license taken by story tellers in the fictional exploration & use of the concept / term "Cyborg" is certainly valid as entertainment, literary history and philosophical rumination but those still do not supersede the original real life scientific definition.

What Cameron did with the word "Cyborg" is what George Orwell described over half a century ago as "News-speak"* and it's obfuscating goal in the service of tyranny ("No is Yes & Yes is No") (in Cameron's case substitute the goal as marketing or money making tactics for tyranny), not to be confused with the enlightening intent of the English Language (or any language other than).

More recently this phenomenon is covered by Farhad Manjoo in his brilliant "True Enough: Learning to Live in a Post-Fact Society" and even more alarmingly by the thoroughly vetted neurological science conveyed in:

Nicholas Carr's cogent "The Shallows: What the Internet Is Doing to Our Brains"

- RV

"News-speak" * - SEE Excerpt from "The Principles of Newspeak".... An appendix to 1984
Written by : George Orwell in 1948:

http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-prin.html


.

[JDW]

Re-posted with relevant highlighting & added pointing-out arrows:

Much better.. And thanks for taking all that trouble to enlighten us..

P.S: I like to imagine my units as being manned, even the cyborgs being human first and then machine. Just sharing my preference..

[TVR]

... Why would an Unmanned vehicle require a crowbar ...

Why does the MULE carry so much equipment that requires hands to use?

Oh right, that's because it operates in close proximity to humans, or in this case, Cyborg engineers!

[JDW]

... Why would an Unmanned vehicle require a crowbar ...

Why does the MULE carry so much equipment that requires hands to use?

Oh right, that's because it operates in close proximity to humans, or in this case, Cyborg engineers!

Huh? I never knew there was a job that a Cyborg Engineer couldn't do without a crowbar..

Last time I checked they were doing just fine on their own..

[JDW]

That is not a hatch:

Looks like RV has got substantial evidence depicting hatches and visor like openings in his comment above.

What say you now, TVR?

[TVR]

... I never knew that there was a job that a Cyborg Engineer couldn't do without a crowbar ...

A crowbar is one of the most useful tools in repairing combat damage.

Ceramic plates smashed in? Wedge out the fragments and swap in a new one.

... Last time I checked they were doing just fine on their own ...

That's because the vehicles they repair carry the spares and equipment required to repair that model, for repairs in the field.

But none of this means a crowbar can't be also used by a robotic vehicle itself, as considering what auto-repair does, it's likely that it uses a retractable robotic arm, as on a spacecraft.

... Looks like RV has got substantial evidence depicting hatches, in his comment above ...

Sure, but that wasn't the statement in question.

Cathuria's recent impression was included because of it's striking accuracy to current perception of the actual model, and thus it is in line with the current development of The Warzone 2100 Project.

Or, one could cite an external comic artist's impression from the 1998 version of Warzone 2100, developed by an entirely different set of developers, and not included any more in the core game than Cathuria's menu backdrop.

[JDW]

Oh right, that's because it operates in close proximity to humans, or in this case, Cyborg engineers!

A crowbar is one of the most useful tools in repairing combat damage.

Just to correct you there, it's the Cyborg Mechanic that performs repairs, and mind you they are equipped with repair turrets..

By your reasoning, even VTOLs must have crowbars mounted on their body if Cyborg Mechanics are to be able to repair them. That wouldn't be a practical design for a VTOL aerodynamically. Not just that, it would look plain silly. Think about it

[JDW]

Sure, but that wasn't the statement in question.

The statement in question is whether Units are Manned (Human operating internally) or Unmanned (computer controlled).

You said that there are no hatches on bodies to allow a human to enter it. But RV has pointed out (with arrows, mind you) that propulsion bodies depicted in the WZ comics actually have hatches. So I think we all are still talking about the statement in question. TVR, tell me you're getting annoyed

[JDW]

... Why would an Unmanned vehicle require a crowbar ...

Why does the MULE carry so much equipment that requires hands to use?

Oh right, that's because it operates in close proximity to humans, or in this case, Cyborg engineers!

By the way, Cyborg mechanics aren't the only ones who can repair a tank/VTOL unit. Repair tank turrets are able to repair units too. Are you saying that they too pull out the mounted crowbar to perform repairs? Your theory has got too many holes my friend..

[TVR]

... it's the Cyborg Mechanic that performs repairs, and mind you they are equipped with repair turrets ..

Yes, ever wonder what the repair 'beam' does? It's an electric arc welder/cutter. What isn't shown is the actually holding of parts and equipment by the other arm.

The repair turret is more flexible, it has the welder/cutter mounted on to the same crane/arm.

... even VTOLs must have crowbars mounted on their body if Cyborg Mechanics are to be able to repair them ... That wouldn't be a practical design for a VTOL aerodynamically ...

VTOLs? Aerodynamic?

AhahahahhahahahaahahahahahahahahahahHAhAHAhHAhaHAHA-HA-HA-HAHAaaahAHAHAHAHAHAHAahahahahahahAhahahahahAhahahaaha...
Aaaahhhh...

VTOLs use the same chassis as tanks, you think they are designed to be aerodynamic? They don't even fly at supersonic speeds.

... But RV has pointed out (with arrows, mind you) that propulsion bodies depicted in the WZ comics actually have hatches ...

You demonstrate exceedingly poor reading comprehension. Try reading what I typed again.

Cathuria's recent impression was included because of it's striking accuracy to current perception of the actual model, and thus it is in line with the current development of The Warzone 2100 Project.

Or, one could cite an external comic artist's impression from the 1998 version of Warzone 2100, developed by an entirely different set of developers, and not included any more in the core game than Cathuria's menu backdrop.

Guess if it's the old picture or the new picture that is more relevant to this new project.

[JDW]

You demonstrate exceedingly poor reading comprehension. Try reading what I typed again.

Oh, but TVR, I did read what you typed, and ignored that fact because I had already considered it. If you had followed this thread meticulously like I have, you will see that i had mentioned it once myself,

RV has pointed out, those graphics are not creations of Pumpkin Studios. However, using these images in the base game would be acknowledging their credibility, no matter who the original creators were..

But even then, the artwork doesn't show the entire view of the vehicle not having a hatch at all, does it? So I believe that that discussion is going to be an endless debate. Unless of course, if you manage to infiltrate the dev team, take over the project, and claim things the way you would them to be. The benevolent dictator.

I will however agree that you have a good point there about VTOLs..

But when it comes to most other points, you have only put forth your own theory. Which is fine. Really

I was only looking for some hard evidence. And frankly I haven't found any that could win the argument either way. And that's exactly how the current development team would like to keep that debate, for now.

[TVR]

... those graphics are not creations of Pumpkin Studios ...

I'd also like to emphasize that the Warzone 2100 8-page comic was not actually created by Pumpkin Studios either, if I recall correctly, It was created by an out-of-house artist, and sold separately for 25 cents.

Even if it was, it is only a partial 2D image of the Python, Cathuria's impressions are multiple fully-textured 3D models that follow the consistent design paradigms, which includes no hatch. I think it would be OK to retcon it in favour of Cathuria's more complete interpretation.

... I was only looking for some hard evidence. And frankly I haven't found any that could win the argument either way ...

I've posted the screenshot of the factory assembly FMV, and the very storyboard that describes everything in the FMV.

Does the AI Brain Unit not convince anyone else?

[JDW]

Does the AI Brain Unit not convince anyone else?

Alright TVR, I'm done having fun with fueling the controversy.

And now I'm going to through you a bone. Yeah, surprise surprise!

The point that you made with the video sequence, showing the AI being loaded into the unit, hints towards the most logical reasoning that there are no human beings inside the tank units, even if Pumpkin Studios have or haven't mentioned it explicitly anywhere in the storyline.

Having said that, there's a video sequence (cam1/map1a_c.ogg) describing why the synaptic link technology was adopted in cyborg technology, which states that

The synaptic link allowed soldiers to be placed in powersuits that they controlled easily as their own bodies

The key word in that sentence is 'in'.

However, I don't really care as to which party is right. And I'm certain that both parties have other valid facts to prove their point. The reason that I was interested in finding the whole truth is because I was fascinated as to why I was getting contradicting opinions from many experienced members. Anyway, now I know why,

The current state is intentionally ambiguous. Players are left to imagine the droids as either manned or unmanned.

So I am going to reserve judgement on this one for the time being.

Besides, I think I will consider my time well spent it trying to help improve the quality of the game, or website content, or suggestions, or ideas, or publicity, anything that would bring more people to the awesome work happening here.

It was fun, and I got to learn a lot from all of you, thanks once again. As they say, life is short, so this will be my last post on this thread, and then I'll be off to play a new map

[TVR]

... The key word in that sentence is 'in'. ...

I agree, my position has always been vehicles are controlled by AI, and cyborg infantry are guys in powered armour.

(Primary directive complete... Shutting down. . . . )