Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

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Olrox
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by Olrox »

I thank you all for sharing your thoughts - I'll take all of them into consideration while proceeding with my creation: Hopefully the finaly result will suit your tastes (it is one of my objectives with this composition - if I can't please you with it, it'll fail this purpose, and that would make Dylan's words really heavy if I didn't consider that he is the overreacting type all the way from the beginning)

Now, more specifically about the tempo, believe you or not, I didn't even look at it, since I was rushing to materialize my idea before it vanished from my mind. That said, after hearing it some 4 times, with 2-hour intervals, and today by the morning, and then right now, I must agree with you that it should be slower to better fit the whole scenario.

I want to know your opinion, for something I was weary about: Is it okay to use electrical guitar sounds to compose it, or would it sound too different from the game's original music? I'm still wondering about that, because I can't remember any musics from the original soundtracks that had clear guitar sounds (if there were, they were at least very distorted). What do you think about that? Should I use clear guitar notes, or rather distorted ones? Only occasionally, or for the lead? :hmm:

Your feedback is precious to me! I feel more encouraged to continue my work with your appreciation.

Now speaking the truth about my thoughts towards the current stage of this particular creation of mine - I also think it's not good as it is: It could be called lame, garbage, or even crap (90% of everything is crap, I was once told). But someone only gets close enough to anything really good (let alone nearly perfect) with experience, and trying over and over again to reach a desirable outcome. Not to mention that talent usually makes the whole way a thousand times smaller. I will do my best, and I won't stop, because I love what I do - and I'll go on until crap becomes a masterpiece 8)

I've started composing a single music one and a half year ago, a music about myself, in the classical, nylon, fingerstyle guitar, for the classical, nylon, fingerstyle guitar playing. "Blast!" is my second attempt at creating music (not considering obviously failed attempts when I was 6~12 years ago, after that my sister died and I walked along with depression, even though not embracing it, but I really didn't create anything anyone could call "artistical" until I've joined this forum) and it is something completely apart from what I have been experimenting with my own song - for that last one, I don't ask anybody elses' opinion because then the song wouldn't be truly about *me*.

With "Blast!", I've still got to go ninety years ahed, into a post-apocalyptic setting, and imagine what kind of a sound I could use to express my own interpretation of the whole thing. Gladly I can count with you all to share thoughts on what we could use to depict the whole thing - that makes things easier than even composing about myself (I can't completely trust myself to portrait myself, because I'm often misguided by outer influences :hmm: )

But enough philosophy, at least for now :lol2:

Thanks once again for sharing your thoughts.

~Olrox
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by HairyLee »

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about what Dylan said - especially when you're just starting, you have to expect criticism - the only way to avoid hearing sh*t like that is to never put anything out at all - and we'd get nowhere. :P
Sticks & stones...

Anyways, back to Blast!

FL always loads 120BPM as the default tempo, so I'm guessing that's what you've got. I think slowing it down would definitely improve the feel of it.

As far as guitar goes - I don't see why not! I'm guessing an Iron Maiden-style section of shredding would be a bit out of place :P, but I reckon you could get some really atmospheric moods out of an electric guitar. Again, when you start experimenting with the effects & stuff, you'll be able to tailor it to sound how you want.
I doubt an acoustic guitar would fit the 'industrial' feel of WZ, but I guess it all depends on how you go about it. It's kinda pointless to say 'x won't work' until you've tried it.

As far as staying true to the original soundtrack, I wouldn't try to think about those songs too much - they fit the mood perfectly (so there will probably be some similarites between them and what we come up with), but at the same time, I think it's more important to just do it as you see fit & not restrict yourself to the same ideas.

Good luck with FL!
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by HairyLee »

Also, sorry for the double-post, but while I was trying to get to sleep last night, this song popped into my head - it demonstrates what I was talking about with getting an atmospheric sound out of an electric guitar:

Voxis - 'Coiled'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UREqWqOVUkY

I'd definitely reccommend checking out Voxis' album 'Darkeworld' for more awesome (and WZ-friendly) music.
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by BlueMaxima »

HairyLee: Too bad we couldn't get him to license the music for free use in Warzone :/
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by HairyLee »

Yeah, tell me about it! Both Voxis and his new incarnation (Blue Stahli) have plenty of places on my WZ playlist!
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by BlueMaxima »

You might have to put up your whole playlist sometime.
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by HairyLee »

BlueMaxima wrote:You might have to put up your whole playlist sometime.
Made a new topic in the discussion thread for WZ playlists in general:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5396

Think it would be cool to see what everyone likes & maybe consider that next time I try & make something!
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by Rman Virgil »

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I share your POV Olrox in all its details. Not surprising as we are simpatico in many ways - as individuals & creators in several mediums. We also have a fair sense of what the other is about as a musician / composer.... plus I am aware of your classical music foundations (thereby I did not hesitate in my musical references). It is out of that context that I spoke initially &, of course, now. Not that I would compare our respective travails but I had a similar period in life and in my case the trigger was the deaths of my older brother & mother within 3 months of each other. Life is too short and precious not to go full tilt boogy, savor every moment and not waste a split second on the ramblings of authoritarian nincompoops.

I also agree with just about all HairyLee has expressed.

That said, I do feel it of value to share a few more thoughts on all of this. And please don't mistake any of the following for mere ivory tower philosophical musings; they are lived with every breathe & wholly utilitarian so are more aptly called a credo.

1.) An artist (in any medium) has to be a fearless warrior. First, because you would make something where there was nothing but your vision. You are stepping into the formless. full tilt, without a safety net, to begin the alchemical process of making something new, something that stands apart from the status quo or the conventional mind set. That takes balls. And that alchemical process, more often than not, yields dross lead in the beginning. So again, you need the courage I call persistence of vision, to work that dross lead into gold. Most have not a clue about that process, even some of the self-proclaimed artists. Those who I can tell clearly do understand this process, besides yourself, would include HairyLee, macuser, Black Project and some few others whose nicks escape me at present (I'm quite fatigued at the moment so don't take my shortlist as being all inclusive). Some of my works take years of effort to fully mature into their final state. Heck, the great Leonardo worked on his Mona Lisa for well nigh 40 years of his life (among his many other gifts, he was also a fine musician, composer and dancer; quite a ladies man too.)

2.) Take no others expressed reality tunnel (or bubble) personally for if you do you forfeit your personal power to an others opinion and thus render yourself impotent. What others have to say could be of practical use (or not) in the alchemical process of creation but that is all the power you grant it.

3.) As far as Tempo, 90-100 sounds about right as a compromise for WZ. Composing for WZ is really NOT at all like composing a soundtrack for a movie. A movie is set in stone and the music is composed to fit every dramatic turn, the highs and the lows and everything in between. A game is entirely open-ended, inter-active, the dramatic high & lows emergent and unpredictable. You have 4 basic atmospheric moods in WZ and each would ideally have there own different tempo: combat free tasking desolation, imminent threat of battle, the battle itself, the aftermath of battle. Ideally, the way to do music without compromise in WZ would be through a dynamic triggering schema. Till such is created for WZ, any single tune will either be a Tempo compromise or it will be entirely mood specific and will thus be tempo specific to that mood and none of the others. Of course you can approach a composition in the classical symphonic construction, with multiple movements, moods and time signatures but then again there is no way at present for those to trigger aptly to match the game play at any given juncture.

4.) Would Electric Guitar fit into WZ's musical aesthetic - absolutely can be done, even if the original composer of WZ's music made no use of that voicing. That is not just a personal bias either merely because as much as I love playing my electric guitar, I equally love playing my keyboards and thus the path of imitating the original WZ stylings is not beyond my ken (& I did many moons ago in 4 compositions) it's just a matter of why re-hash the same ol, same ol, instead of boldly exploring new territory.

I too can point to an electric guitarist whose stylings would fit just fine in the WZ aesthetic. He's Norwegian, he's in 70's, been putting out seminal recordings for decades now on the great German label ECM. His name is Terje Ripdal and you can check out a bunch of his work on YouTube here:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... ypdal&aq=3

(I could also add a bunch of work by electric guitar giants John McLaughlin and Robin Trower but Terje's work is a great place to start vis-a-vis WZ...)


WZ Creators conceived WZ as a living, evolving, product. For the first 5 years of the game's history the community thoroughly comprehended this mainly because they had intimate contact with members of the Pumpkin team. After the source was released and folks came to the game because of that alone this understanding was lost and WZ was treated like Biblical revelation. I spent years till I was blue in the face trying to get the original design intent across. Finally last year a member of the original creation team gave us a visit and at my behest confirmed this PoV so that mostly it has sunk in that WZ was not meant to stay frozen like religious dogma.

I'll conclude this rather longish post with a few quotes that sum-up the forgoing with panache, poetry and artful wit.
If your nerve deny you, go above your nerve.

- Emily Dickenson
By believing passionately in something that still doesnot exist, we create it. The nonexistent is what we have not sufficiently desired.

- Nikos Kazantzakis
Perhaps you can write better if you leave the mistakes.

- Jorge Luis Borges
The universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.

- Eden Phillpotts
Your only limitations are those you set-up in your mind, or permit others to set-up for you.

- Og Mandino


Regards, RV :cool:

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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by HairyLee »

^ An epic post, but I wholeheartedly agree.

Also, just to show you it's possible - here's a synth-heavy industrial song mangled out of some acoustic guitar :)
There are some more melodic guitar bits than the initial 2-chord riff that come in at about 1:50.

Android Lust - Another Void
http://digitalstore.androidlust.com/track/another-void
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by Olrox »

Rman Virgil wrote:rather longish post with a few quotes that sum-up the forgoing with panache, poetry and artful wit
Please, nevermind the length of your post. Hmm... actually, I do like posts with real meat on them, not some barely half-suggestive couple of lines :wink:

Your words are always delightful to read, and I must thank you for sharing your knowledge with me (I want to be like you when I grow up - mentally - And I mean it :) )
:lol2:
I know that this sounds fun and all, but it's true, since I've always valued coherent, cohese and wide knowledge as well as open-minded, multidimensional thinking like those of yours. Since I do aim for an artistical career where I can have dignity while I do what I love and do best, one of my worst nightmares is about becoming attached to a single line of thinking, or to trends (which are, IMO, mostly short-living myths). Hopefully that won't become a real fear, not to mention even becoming the truth someday - odds of that happening are, luckily, very unlikely 8)

Anyway, thanks again for sharing your precious insights, they are priceless to me :geek:

I've come up with the second iteration of "Blast!", sticking to some of the suggestions, such as reducing the tempo. Now it is 80 or 85 bpm I think - suits WZ's overall rythm in a better way, I should agree. As Rman mentioned, we should have dynamic triggered soundtracks to fit the dynamic unpredictability characteristic of the game, and I do hope that this becomes truth in the future (either near or far). I think that we must have a larger volume of "material" to justify commiting such alterations to the game, but that's talk for another hour, in another place.

In this second iteration I've modified most of the music's elements (I've lost the source file for the first version, but don't tell anybody), so to add more atmosphere to it. It is still short, only 1:48, but I must know if the community approves its style before I spend more time into it - that's because this sound is dedicated for you all, it's not simply me composing something that I felt like composing.

That all said - I'm obviously still eager to hear what you think about it, please share your opinions/suggestions - here it is,
Blast! Mk2
Blast!.mp3
Also, I've tried to switch it to the piano, just to see how it looked like - it sounded nice, therefore I'm sharing it with you as well :D
Piano Blast.mp3
Last, but not least, I'm willing to send the .flp files for any of my musics to anybody who wants to try something else with it - only send me a PM or e-mail and I'll gladly send them to you so that you can edit it and share the results with us :)

~Olrox
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by Roux Le Corps »

Piano sounded great, and blast mk II.... I LOVE IT!!! i've added it to my regular playlist so even when i don't have wz running i can still hear it, suitably dark and mechanical, while seeming like something is on the move... intentional or just how im taking it?

No reall feed back from me i love it, maybe try for a biiiit longer next time? i hate the under two minutes thing lol, leaves me wanting more hahaha, oh and if it's supposed to loop may want to end it so it doesn't seem to jump into the start again
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by BlueMaxima »

Very good Olrox, as Roux Le Corps said though, it's way too short.
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by KenAlcock »

Hey Orlox, I really like the latest version you posted above! Great stuff! :D

I'll offer some constructive tips.

1. Pay close attention to the lead-in and fade-out. Try to make the ambient sounds of both similar enough and at similar volume, so that when the track loops, it will sound more seamless. Since this track begins with an explosion-type sound for the lead-in, there should not be such a sound at the precise end of the track. Otherwise, looping the track won't sound good (you would have two explosions on top of each other). Currently, the track begins with an impact but it also ends cold (that is the beat stops rather abruptly); this does not help for looping.

What I suggest is that you keep the impact lead-in the same as you have now, but sightly modify the ending. The beat should trail off and fade down first, while the other (more ambient) sounds remain at their full volume. Then, fade the other sounds out as the track comes to an end. It should take about 5 to 10 seconds to trail the ambient sounds down to volume zero. The very last second (or portion of a second) of the track should be very quiet or no sound at all (faded down very low). Even if this track is not looped upon itself, making these changes will help the next track come in more seamlessly to the human ear.

2. The track needs to be much longer. You've got really good stuff here, now give us more of it! Try to extend some of the different segments and see if you can inflate this to about 4 times the time duration. Music segments work best when they are in multiples of 4 beats. So if you have a segment that is currently 16 beats longs, try making it 24 or 32 beats long. By segment I mean when you bring in a new sound or drop an existing sound out of the track.

3. You could probably add a couple more sounds to the track, each in their own segments. This would also help you make it longer. What sounds you add are up to you the artist, but of course they must support your overall theme. But a variety of sounds in a track are what captivates the human ear.

BTW the music category your track belongs in would be best classified as Ambient. One the Internet radio stations I listen to is RadioIO Ambient. If you click that link and listen for a couple of hours, you might get some inspiration of things to try with your WZ music.

After closing my eyes and listening to this track a few dozen times through, I've noticed an interesting juxtaposition to it. On one hand the beat and foreground sounds convey a build up and a steady determination, even an optimism or arrogance. It sounds tough, but latent. As if something purposeful is building to a climax. But on the other hand, the background sounds, sound like a menacing threat off in the distance. I believe it those more menacing sounds that you should play at the very end of the track during the fade-out.
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by Dylan Hsu »

HairyLee wrote:Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about what Dylan said - especially when you're just starting, you have to expect criticism - the only way to avoid hearing sh*t like that is to never put anything out at all - and we'd get nowhere. :P
Sticks & stones...

...................
FL always loads 120BPM as the default tempo, so I'm guessing that's what you've got. I think slowing it down would definitely improve the feel of it.
It's 140BPM......



Olrox, I really like your new version, and it seems you've put some work into it. I listened to the not-piano version. Here's some level-headed constructive criticism. These are my opinions, I'm not trying to dilute your work but I'm simply offering what I know.

- I think the percussion sample that you hear in the first 2 seconds could use a nice lowpass filter
- Snare drum needs more "punch" (larger transient in the ~200hz region)
- The synth that you bring in at 0:36 could use a lowpass and added resonance for a more acidic yet subdued sound.
- I still think you could cut the tempo by 3 to 5 BPM
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Re: Blast! - Music WIP by Olrox

Post by Rman Virgil »

.

Ah my friend, the work clearly evolves in ways most interesting. And the wonderful thing about sharing in these boards is that mutual inspiration and learning can emerge in a natural way, an esprit de corps if you will, as it has between us. :D

Specific comments on this latest iteration that could be useful ? I think KenAlcock's post is keen & covers tremendous practical ground with a lucid grace and the only thing I would add would be that in your piano rendition you may want to consider adding chordal structure to your solo note progressions - I tend to favor 7ths and 11ths. This would give you powerful tools to layer 4D, counterpoint, expand, and in general flesh-out the piece at greater length and explore your current motifs and themes architecturally. By this last I mean that in it's present form, as metaphor, it is akin a spare altar & that's just fine minimalism but you do have the option of building a cathedral around that altar and creating a musically epic journey &, as I understand music, to go that route chordal structures are indispensable.

In this sense your non-piano version could possibly be grown with piano chordal structures (or any of an endless variety of other keyboard voicings to choose from besides acoustic grand or upright - electric, Fender Rhodes, synth, organ, & so forth). I also think the ear is captivated even more by the contrasting of single note progressions and chordal structures - mixing it up, you could say.

Then, again, you may want to keep to the spare altar (minimalism has its own power and beauty much as a haiku or couplet does vs say an epic of Heroic verse) and I could also merely be expressing my own preferred reality bubble in musical terms, heh. :wink: Music is as vast as the universe; its emotional effects on the human psyche the most imaginatively interpretive of all the arts - a poetic impressionism to Nth degree. And all built out of a mere 12 notes in an octave (at least, in Western music). Of course I speak of purely instrumental tunes - tunes with spoken language sung are yet another critter for another context.

- RV :)

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