My personal take on a very old dispute...

[Zarax]

I'll probably get in front of the firing squad for reopening this can of worms, however hopefully my idea won't be too crazy.

We all know the multi-turret discussion and it can be summed up into "the idea sounds cool but in game it looks weird and extremely hard to balance".
I learned how to mod just enough to see it with my eyes and indeed the objections makes very good sense on the actual implementation.

I just recently started again on WZ2100 and unfortunately I don't have the programming or modeling skills required to test all my ideas, however I've been modding RTS games since Dune 2 (yes, you can change the maps in that oldie) and I have some experience on balancing coolness with feasibility.

Currently the best solution I've seen on the multi-turret problem was to change the models so that they wouldn't look weird in game (BTW, hats off to Olrox, Mangust, Xanax and all working on improving that side of the game), however that doesn't solve the slowing down and high HP part.

I modded body.txt so that heavy bodies would have 2 weapons and reached the following conclusions:

- Very few weapon configurations looks good

- It's indeed easy to make overpowered units

- Clipping kills most of the "ok looking" combinations

On the txt side making some weapons fixed instead of rotating helped with clipping but not much else.
I kept thinking "if the 2nd turret was smaller things would be much easier" and looking at cyborgs I think I might have found a solution.

We can have extra turrets but those would use a different selection than the "main" weapon.

GFX wise, it shouldn't be too hard for a modeler to clip out cyborg weapons from their pie file (that's the model format, right?) and figure out a good place for a couple "hardpoints" in most bodies.

Balance wise, cyborg grade weapons already do less damage than their turret counterparts and can have lower HP and weight.
In addition to that, the extra hardpoints would be all fixed or have a very small pointing arch.

The hard part, aka resources required:

- Specific multi-turret code (I believe that some clues can be found in the VTOL weapon code)

- New pie files for the extra turrets (I don't know blender but usually clipping out parts of a model is relatively easy for a modeler) which can be made out of the current cyborg weapons

- Some modding of the bodies in order to change turret placement (hopefully that won't require special coding)

- Some minor texture job would help it to look consistent

This is how I imagine they could look in game:

What do you think?

[Olrox]

Awesome idea, I fully support this if feasible. And I'm willing to make specific models for those secondary weapons if the idea gets support from more people and starts developing.

Changing turret placement positions is relatively easy - requires changing position of connectors. However, I can imagine it'll take some coding to only allow a specific type of weapon to certain slots. Regarding to these coding changes and feasibility judgement, you'll have to wait & hear from the experienced folks.

But truly, I've loved the idea and think it's worth the efforts to think about new possibilities for secondary weapons

~Olrox

[Zarax]

Another good thing about this is that once the code is in a couple extra things become much easier to implement, namely designable cyborgs and more credible legged platforms in game (super cyborgs are already slow enough that they could benefit from a 2nd weapon as well).

Anyway, before getting excited about it I would like to know if devs think this is worth the coding effort.

[Zarel]

I don't think mounting cyborg weapons on a tank is the right solution. I've considered it, but they just look too out-of-place. Would require entirely new models for it to work.

[Olrox]

I don't think mounting cyborg weapons on a tank is the right solution. I've considered it, but they just look too out-of-place. Would require entirely new models for it to work.

Entirely new models for the vehicles or weapons?
If that's the main reason but the idea is worthy being implemented, we may make models that don't look *out of place* for AR.
The decision would need to be reached soon as I'm already waiting for a relatively long time to get back to producing AR stuff. Bodies are top priority in our schedule.

Weapons are faster and easier than bodies to make, I think.

~Olrox

[Zarax]

I don't think mounting cyborg weapons on a tank is the right solution. I've considered it, but they just look too out-of-place. Would require entirely new models for it to work.

My approach was a quick and dirty one art-work wise.
However as a coder what do you think about the 2nd custom weapon slots?

[MaNGusT]

Weapons are faster and easier than bodies to make, I think.

You are right, but the biggest problem is propulsion models because each of them has 2 parts - left & right. In this way it will be hard to keep a triangles count low.

[Zarax]

Well, isn't the side with attachment always the same?
The turret should rotate to match its attachment location and that's it.
Or am I wrong?

Zarel, I know that you must be sick and tired of this topic after all this years but since it seems that you got the artists ready to do their share will you at least consider if this is feasible?
It might also turn out useful for other projects like mechs and scavenger mods but this will happen only if you devs think it may have a chance.

EDIT: Looks like Pumpkin concept art wasn't very far from what I had in mind:

[Zarel]

No, talking about this is fine. This is hardly the worst idea proposed on these forums.

The biggest issue I have with this is that the graphics for the cyborg turrets don't fit tank turrets - they'd have to be modified to look like smaller versions of the tank turrets.

But even then, I'm not sure this is the right idea. I've thought about just restricting secondary turrets by weight... Would probably be better.

[Olrox]

No, talking about this is fine. This is hardly the worst idea proposed on these forums.

The biggest issue I have with this is that the graphics for the cyborg turrets don't fit tank turrets - they'd have to be modified to look like smaller versions of the tank turrets.

But even then, I'm not sure this is the right idea. I've thought about just restricting secondary turrets by weight... Would probably be better.

Well, I prefer smaller turrets for secondary weapons. Having two of the normal turrets usually looks weird no matter what combination we make.

Then the smaller turrets would be made especially to look good as secondary weapons - so that we have no more of those weird clipping issues, which is a big problem with most multi-turret combos.

~Olrox

[Zarax]

Olrox, Mangust: what do you think about opening a mod thread (or even using this one) to study the issue from an aesthetic POV?

It doesn't have to be a working project but rather a relatively quick and dirty approach to see if we can find suitable spots for smaller turret models in the available in-game models.

We can limit it to heavy bodies and upwards in order to preserve balance and make it quicker.

Zarel: I've thought about a weight limit but that would only help with balance and not too effectively. In any case I won't push it again until I will have something that suits your tastes better.

[Olrox]

Olrox, Mangust: what do you think about opening a mod thread (or even using this one) to study the issue from an aesthetic POV?

It doesn't have to be a working project but rather a relatively quick and dirty approach to see if we can find suitable spots for smaller turret models in the available in-game models.

Well, quick & dirty is not interesting for me at all, I can't manage to make things without the hope of them being above average - I must aim for that if I really seek to improve my skills. Zarel, as well as other members, from staff or not, should know that I can make a good work out of it if I put some effort on it (I think that most people can make a good work if they put an effort on it), so I think this should grow in the side of application issues, balancing characteristics, and such implementation possibilities.

I'm not the one to work on something that has more than a few chances of failure, because of the lack of a good analysis before production itself. Even concept art must be made only for things that have already been discussed, IMO, otherwise the risk of wasting an artist's work on some hopeless thing is too great.

If the discussion goes on, and you reach the point where most people involved really think it'll work, but "doubt it'll look good", then it's the time for the toltec warriors to fight - call the artists. But unless the odds of success are visible, I think I should focus on working with what I already put in my top priorities - the same philosophy that keeps me from having true faith on anything.

But see, gut instinct something really apart from faith, IMO. This first I have much of & often trust it, a lot, and it's probably what made me support this idea - more than the capability of thinking about good designs that would allow such secondary weapons.

That all in short - I myself must see a practical conclusion before putting any effort on that, and really think it'll work with a good balance, more than having two normal turrets only on the last body in the research tree.

~Olrox

[Zarax]

Looks like I expressed myself improperly.

I think that what we have here is a small deadlock.

Zarel (correct me if I'm wrong) seems skeptical on how it would look like while you understandeably wouldn't want to work on something that is not likely to succeed.

What I'm proposing here is to make a feature study, which would be a small (quick and dirty as in not a full scale project at least yet) test consisting in making 2-3 small custom turrets to see how they can be placed on a body to look best.

It would require a relatively small involvment and can be used as placeholder to see how it would look and feel if fully implemented.
I used the cyborg weapons as example before as it would probably require the least effort to implement (weapon code is already there and would be quicker to do the rest) but nobody forces us to do so.

I prefer a KISS approach initially as what we have here is a problem best solved one step at the time, to me the first problem to be solved is:

Can we make a 2nd (and possibly 3rd on some chassis) turret and position it in a way that would assure no clipping between it and the first one or the body?

EDIT: BTW, making the base for a truly working multi-turret system is not exactly what I would call average Olrox, although the baby-step approach to it may not look very appealing at start.

[Per]

But even then, I'm not sure this is the right idea. I've thought about just restricting secondary turrets by weight... Would probably be better.

Why does that sound oddly familiar... Oh, I remember now https://gna.org/patch/?774

The stats files have (or had?) a field called 'system points' which I believe was meant for this purpose, giving an indication of how bulky a component is. It was never used for anything.

I think it would be better to have a boolean value to indicate fitness as a secondary weapon, and an arbitrary rotation restriction value for each body connector. And we really need to clean up the connectors. :-S

[Zarax]

That would be good as well, if there is an easy way to distinguish turret types code-wise then it wouldn't be too hard to make "special slots".

That said Per, do you have any further suggestions or objections to my idea?