Ideas for a new cannon class

[Zarax]

Since there are quite a few rocket and cannon balancing threads I'd like to give an idea on adding variety to cannons.

While the current selection covers almost every corner, cannons are good but not flexible enough to be truly competitive against rockets.
Looking at some old WW2 pics I realized that having a breacher category could add a new specialist skill without overlapping significantly with other categories.

The features of this line of guns would be:

- Extremely heavy
- Low ROF
- High damage
- High HP
- Good against buildings and defenses

Advantages: This line would provide a specialist unit able to spearhead assaults against bunker lines without the risk of counter battery fire that you would get with artillery or the low HP of rockets.
With high damage they would also be able to avoid being sitting ducks if an enemy comes close, although low speed and ROF means that they are unsuitable without proper support.

Disadvantages: First of all, as the unit carries an extremely heavy gun, it would be slow.
As the gun itself is tuned for antibuilding use it would never be a good alternative to the main gun line against tanks and the like.
Lastly, the gun would be fixed and not in a rotating turret, further reducing its fighting value against mobile targets.

Historical examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturm-Infa ... 3%BCtz_33B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brummb%C3%A4r
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmtiger

You don't want to be in front of them at close range but you can easily see how they can be balanced.
The last example used a heavy rocket historically but it was originally planned to fit it with a gun, basically they all were artillery howitzers cut down and pointed forward with some heavy armour for urban fighting.

What do you think?

[Zarel]

Interesting idea...

[Zarax]

Thanks.
It came out from the MRA post and after that I thought that good old WW2 could have had something useful...

[Olrox]

The features of this line of guns would be:

- Extremely heavy
- Low ROF
- High damage
- High HP
- Good against buildings and defenses

Hmm, looks like an improved Bunker Buster to me. I'm not sure if it's balanced like that.
Always think about someone using that to crush your defenses ot see if you really like the idea

And welcome to the forums

~Olrox

[Zarax]

I forgot to mention that this would have a shortish range rather than BB semi-stand-off range.

Given its features it's easy to make it a slow and expensive unit, if you let it approach your defenses you're in trouble but an average player will have enough time to react when he sees the unit as mobility is definitely not its good side.

[Zarel]

Hmm, looks like an improved Bunker Buster to me. I'm not sure if it's balanced like that.
Always think about someone using that to crush your defenses ot see if you really like the idea

It would be heavier, which should be enough of an offset. Bunker buster is a really hit-and-run weapon.

[Olrox]

Hmm, looks like an improved Bunker Buster to me. I'm not sure if it's balanced like that.
Always think about someone using that to crush your defenses ot see if you really like the idea

It would be heavier, which should be enough of an offset. Bunker buster is a really hit-and-run weapon.

Yeah, but it has high HP. Well, without real values we won't get to a conclusion wether it's balanced or not.
Another important thing is what would the prereqs be, and if it would get benefits only from cannon upgrades (I think this second makes sense).

But yeah, it actually would fit an direct assault hard structure fighting weapon, a new specialized kind. Would be nice to see if correctly balanced

[Zarel]

Yeah, but it has high HP. Well, without real values we won't get to a conclusion wether it's balanced or not.
Another important thing is what would the prereqs be, and if it would get benefits only from cannon upgrades (I think this second makes sense).

For survivability of a long-reload weapon, weight is more important than HP. Once it's fired a shot, you want it way out of harm's way until it reloads.

The bigger problem is... what kind of weapon is a counter for a hit-and-run weapon? I can't think of anything but "artillery" and "long-range structures". But that makes the most effective counter for lancer hovers... lancer hardpoints. Too many lancers.

[Zarax]

I left some things pretty generic exactly for that purpose.
I'm still new here and while I usually have a good grasp of balancing (if you have rome: total war I can prove it) it will take me time to "take the measures" properly to the game.

I was thinking around the same range as light cannon, 2X heavy cannon weight and half the ROF with 150% HP but that's on paper without proper testing.

[Olrox]

The bigger problem is... what kind of weapon is a counter for a hit-and-run weapon? I can't think of anything but "artillery" and "long-range structures".

Fast flamer units are decently good, as they deal damage over time even if the unit runs. Normal flamers are the same weight as bunker busters, they can harass them while those are reloading, for a devastating effect if used properly (sent around the line of fire to flank the enemy, for example). Incendiary bombs in VTOLs are also good, actually cannons and AT rockets also hit the spot.

For survivability of a long-reload weapon, weight is more important than HP. Once it's fired a shot, you want it way out of harm's way until it reloads.

Yeah, but hey, how much weight are we talking, and how much HP?

I was thinking around the same range as light cannon, 2X heavy cannon weight and half the ROF with 150% HP but that's on paper without proper testing.

I think that the range shouldn't be too different from the heavy cannon. After all, the heavier the shell, the longer the range is. You are proposing high-caliber shells, so they should have a decently long range - since it's a cannon and not a rocket-propelled weapon, the the whole mechanism and structure of the weapon is very heavy, so we should work in this way to balance it, I think.

150% hp in relation to heavy cannons (resulting in 750) seems a bit too much to me, it's more than Gauss Cannons (which are the turrets with the highest HP before the Mass-Driver). 125% (625 HP) seems more reasonable, given the nature of the weapon.

Note the progression of Weight/HP from Light Cannon to Heavy Cannon - Weight grows in a more accentuated rate than HP. Since we're talking about a Cannon, I believe it should mantain those standards. 2x the Heavy cannon seems very high to me, perhaps 1.5 (to 15000 weight) would be better.

~Olrox

[Zarax]

Range is tuned to be short for both realism and balancing.
We're talking about large caliber and short muzzle here.

EDIT: remember that the inspiration is taken from an urban warfare weapon, where firepower and protection are greatly increased at the expense of range and mobility.

The aim is not to have a super-heavy tank cannot but rather the equivalent of a short range howitzer with direct fire and maximum armor.
Take a look at the wikipedia entries I posted to get the picture.

[Olrox]

Range is tuned to be short for both realism and balancing.
We're talking about large caliber and short muzzle here.

EDIT: remember that the inspiration is taken from an urban warfare weapon, where firepower and protection are greatly increased at the expense of range and mobility.

The aim is not to have a super-heavy tank cannot but rather the equivalent of a short range howitzer with direct fire and maximum armor.
Take a look at the wikipedia entries I posted to get the picture.

I saw that, and think it would look awfully ugly. Nevermind the fact that it's indeed WW2 stuff - if you can find modern weapons that have the same design, please, share them with me.

~Olrox

[Zarax]

The assault gun died with WWII, after that rockets take their role.

The last example of the concept is the super heavy tank of the early cold war but those have the same general look as a tank:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obyekt_279
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-28_Super_Heavy_Tank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuze ... 00_Monster

I'm not saying that we have to follow WW2 looks but rather just the weapon concept.

[TVR]

I'd suggest granting higher DPS, as that cannon turret already trades off speed for armour, ROF for damage per hit, but it doesn't gain anything for trading off range.

[ragnar]

The features of this line of guns would be:

- Extremely heavy
- Low ROF
- High damage
- High HP
- Good against buildings and defenses

What do you think?

Don't mortars and howitzers fill this role? If you're thinking of a close fire support weapon "a la sturmgeschutz", in WZ, those two have such a short range that they become just that. They're not much in the hitpoint department, but they don't need to be at the front line.

Or, more likely, you're thinking of the WWII weapons that were supposed to go up to a fortified target and then fire a ginormous shell at extremely close range. The reason they where never mass-produced was that while they did their job, the lack of mobility and overly specific role meant they where mostly a waste of valuable resources. Even if it seems like a nice idea, because of the game mechanics in WZ, where you can simply wear a target's hitpoints down, crawling into range with an semi-invulnerable superweapon is never going to work.