Campaign Add-on Proposal - Need Ideas & Production Help

[Zarel]

From what I can tell, increasing it only seems to break savegames, not maps or mods.

Not maps? Hmm, maybe I don't know the map format as well as I should. Mods really depends on the type of mod, I suppose; you're right that most of them probably wouldn't break.

[Olrox]

From what I can tell, increasing it only seems to break savegames, not maps or mods.

Not maps? Hmm, maybe I don't know the map format as well as I should. Mods really depends on the type of mod, I suppose; you're right that most of them probably wouldn't break.

Is it too time-costly to try making the changes and make people test their mods on it?

[Zarel]

Is it too time-costly to try making the changes and make people test their mods on it?

Like we said, it breaks savegames, which is enough to mean we will not be changing it at all in the near future.

Plus, the game isn't balanced for larger maps, and I think there are other aspects of the game engine that would need to be overhauled. Plus, usages of 32-bit signed integers for world coordinates will overflow past 256x256 maps. (A 512x512 map is 9 bits right there, plus 7 bits for world coordinates, doubled because coordinates need to be squared for distance calculations, becomes 32 bits, enough for overflow.) So we would have change a lot of stuff to use 64-bit arithmetic, which would be quite frustrating.

[RBL-4NiK8r]

OK we tried this years ago, I cant say much about the save game thing, but no units would drive outside the 256x256 squares and I dont think gateways worked otuside that area as I recall, its been ages since we did this, I dont recall what all was done but I know I and a few others were trying to make bigger maps, and we never got it to work right.



4nE

[Rman Virgil]

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Like we said, it breaks savegames, which is enough to mean we will not be changing it at all in the near future.

One 256 x 256 map can readily accommodate 5-6 exciting, fun, immersive and challenging missions if you know what you are doing in the aggregate insofar as artful interactive storytelling (translated into VERY specific mission conditional events for precise scripting), map making and Cam AI scripting, That particular sequence of tasking is not stated willy-nilly AND all together the 3 comprise a system dynamic which is shaped in a manner characteristic of what is called "concurrent engineering".

I speak from hard won experience and I find it particularly interesting that this thread solicits "advice" in its topic and yet quite obviously (& rudely too) ignored ALL actual basic nut's and bolts, precise, advice on creating any type of WZ Cam successfully. Certainly you all free to carry on as you will but there is a fundamental inconsistency there that.... well, enough said.

RV
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[Olrox]

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I speak from hard won experience and I find it particularly interesting that this thread solicits "advice" in its topic and yet quite obviously (& rudely too) ignored ALL actual basic nut's and bolts, precise, advice on creating any type of WZ Cam successfully. Certainly you all free to carry on as you will but there is a fundamental inconsistency there that.... well, enough said.

RV
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Yeah, I kow where you're getting at - some parts are being somewhat skipped. But well, I want to make the map, and if XboxJosh, Scorpion and ZemMaster aren't able to make the whole "engineering-behind-the-art" thing (which add together in the end for a true artistic masterpiece, if done correctly, due all the efforts and skills and talents involved, IMO), the map might as well as be adapted by myself into a very good 1x1 map full of scavs, which might be enough to make one have at least a slight flashback from the campaign, where you comfront many scavengers before facing a real match to the Project (New Paradigm, is the name for occasional slow folks).

I'm sure that my efforts aren't going to be wasted, and I wish that the previously named team is also trying to ensure that their ones are also not going to be in vain.

Anyway, I have to be pessimistic

~Olrox

[Rman Virgil]

.

I speak from hard won experience and I find it particularly interesting that this thread solicits "advice" in its topic and yet quite obviously (& rudely too) ignored ALL actual basic nut's and bolts, precise, advice on creating any type of WZ Cam successfully. Certainly you all free to carry on as you will but there is a fundamental inconsistency there that.... well, enough said.

RV
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Yeah, I kow where you're getting at - some parts are being somewhat skipped. But well, I want to make the map, and if XboxJosh, Scorpion and ZemMaster aren't able to make the whole "engineering-behind-the-art" thing (which add together in the end for a true artistic masterpiece, if done correctly, due all the efforts and skills and talents involved, IMO), the map might as well as be adapted by myself into a very good 1x1 map full of scavs, which might be enough to make one have at least a slight flashback from the campaign, where you comfront many scavengers before facing a real match to the Project (New Paradigm, is the name for occasional slow folks).

I'm sure that my efforts aren't going to be wasted, and I wish that the previously named team is also trying to ensure that their ones are also not going to be in vain.

Anyway, I have to be pessimistic

~Olrox

Actually I think that is all a constructive and positive way to look at it and go forward with what you are doing. Either outcome, I know that you will create something fun and worthwhile and it will be a satisfying investment of time, energy and talent - what is called a "win-win" proposition.

Regards, RV
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[Olrox]

Actually I think that is all a constructive and positive way to look at it and go forward with what you are doing. Either outcome, I know that you will create something fun and worthwhile and it will be a satisfying investment of time, energy and talent - what is called a "win-win" proposition.

Regards, RV
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Yep

Anyway, I think it'll be ok even if set to 128x256. But I really think we should mantain a "long" profile. Here's an adaptation:

CAM0A.png

[Rman Virgil]

Anyway, I think it'll be ok even if set to 128x256. But I really think we should mantain a "long" profile. Here's an adaptation:

CAM0A.png

Doing it that way, with crafty map design layout, you can successfully eliminate "Map Sector-Bounding" scripting which can be a PITA and which I personally find too blatantly artificial, (totally distracting from immersion) and annoying. Plus, like you said earlier, it does create an enhanced immersive sensibility of being on a Journey or Quest which is so fundamental to human nature and that yearning for adventure with an edge that it is acknowledged as a universal archetype of mythic scope and power. In fact you are actually embedding powerful story telling technique in your fundamental map design !

Regards, RV
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[XboxJosh]

Wow, a lot happened while I was asleep/at school :rolleyes:

I agree, I think the 128x256 map looks good

[Olrox]

Doing it that way, with crafty map design layout, you can successfully eliminate "Map Sector-Bounding" scripting which can be a PITA and which I personally find too blatantly artificial, (totally distracting from immersion) and annoying. Plus, like you said earlier, it does create an enhanced immersive sensibility of being on a Journey or Quest which is so fundamental to human nature and that yearning for adventure with an edge that it is acknowledged as a universal archetype of mythic scope and power. In fact you are actually embedding powerful story telling technique in your fundamental map design !

Regards, RV
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Thanks, I guess you already know how much I appreciate your comments

Wow, a lot happened while I was asleep/at school :rolleyes:

I agree, I think the 128x256 map looks good

That's what happens when you let Olrox too comfortable in your topics
Anyway, done the first version of the height map.
This should be easy to make cliffs on, maybe some 38 degree apliccation in everything should do the trick.

CAM0A.png

BTW, in the intro FMV the first members arrive at the military base in a Jepp, in the middle of snow. It'd be nice to check if that's solely due to the nuclear winter or if they are in the rockies. I recall seeing some mountains in the video, but can't remember right. I'll check on that later.

That might make us decide between one of the tilesets, and I really think it's worthy checking - after all, the work must be coherent with the original story, otherwise I think it's not worthy spending our time to make it! We can make something really good, but let's aim for excellent, I say!

[XboxJosh]

The heightmap looks great!

I would be inclined to use the Rockies tileset, since that's in the Intro FMV. The Cam 1 FMV looks like New Mexico area, but who knows. I'd go with the "actual footage"

[Rman Virgil]

Like I said, I'll try to get on making that map. (Does anyone know if FlaME supports scroll limits? If not, looks like I may be using EW32 :/)

Maybe you can make the whole map in flaME and then edit it in EW to make scroll limits and scripts.

I dunno if it'll work, though. But flaME is undeniably easier, more stable and more user-friendly than EW, so I think it'd be the right way to go, if it works.

Let me clear up a little confusion here if you decide to map sector bind with scroll limits.

1.) Scroll-Limits are defined in scripts.

2.) 32EW does NOT define scroll limits or in any way generate scripting. It merely displays map coordinates just like FlaME does. The coordinates you choose you have to write down by hand so that .........

3.) You can plug them into your scripts to define EVERYTHING - scroll limits, event triggers (such as unit spawning location or SFX to play when a player enters a defined area or GFX like a "Mission Transmission FMV"), any conditions to be met that are tied to geographic occupation (that can also involve Timers as a variant), the generation of structs upon load that are not pre-placed or built by trucks in RT, etc. etc... the combos in scripting are pretty vast and most NEED to be anchored to map-coordinates.

4.) In short, you CAN do everything that needs to be done with FlaME alone (plus scripting, natch). If you wanna bounce into 32EW its only a personal preference NOT because you have to or you gain any practical advantage over FlaME..

In closing....

Vis-a-vis concurrent engineering.... You should ask your self the following question (in itself, the creator's quest - note the same word root) with most of your design decisions regarding creating a campaign experience (basically an interactive narrative laced with risky, dangerous, military command decision-making routed along the defined narrative journey, preserving your forces as best you can while blowing your opponent's to smithereens & even just as interesting, stealing it. That is, commandeering enemy assets is in its own way as thrilling as the planning for, and entering into, the Heat of Battle experience, IMHO.)

The QUESTION:

"Do I absolutely need to do this with scripting OR can I achieve the same ends via Map Design and pre-placements ?"

If your clever and imaginative, you can save yourself a lot of scripting work.

- RV
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[RBL-4NiK8r]

Well for what its worth, and I am not going to hijack the topic, but adding Cyborgs as the enemy for the Scavs near the end would be a good idea, not to start with, but maybe on mission 2 they come across a few borgs, and near the end a few Super Borgs. Also as for where they first people came to find TECH I think it was in Colorado or very close, I think thats what was in the comic book too.



4nE

[Olrox]

The QUESTION:

"Do I absolutely need to do this with scripting OR can I achieve the same ends via Map Design and pre-placements ?"

If your clever and imaginative, you can save yourself a lot of scripting work.

- RV
.

I really think that we don't need scroll limits at all. But we must have a timer, IMO, to justify that you must make haste to get to the military base before anybody else does. I also don't think that we need specific objectives like "destroy the enemy bases at the specific locations", maybe the last mission could be a no-timer one where you must secure the sector before sending out the expeditionary teams: that would make a lot of sense.

The quest of the first members of the Project is to get to the military base where they would find adequate shelter and the facilities to support a re-colonization and tech-recovering campaign. I really think we should rely mostly on the intro FMV, as it contains the info regarding how the Project began, and how they've found the adequate facilities to start with.

They get out of the shelter in the military base with a Machinegun Viper Wheels, or something at least very much like it - that points towards the conclusion that this primary tech was already at that base. The basic buildings were also on the base, as you start with them. The truck, well, you start even MP games with those, and have to research MG, so that's the very first item of the tech tree, I think.

The most advanced tech the player must acquire in the prologue is the lowest tech available in the first campaign - it is like this on all campaigns, I don't see why it should be different in this one (wouldn't even make sense, as there's no motive for the CAM1 to start with lower tech than the end of the "CAM0").

But about the cyborgs, I think it's interesting, with the exception of the super borg. That's because you can't find super borgs even on CAM3, and even though a single Super Heavy Gunner should be a nightmare for an average group of MG units, it is more advanced tech. As for the regular cyborgs, I think it is nice because then the Project would have a real motive to know about the existance of & want to dominate the Synaptic Link technology (they've entered in contact with cyborgs and could salvage a power-suit, but couldn't understand how it worked - the origin of the curiosity and top-priority of recovering this particular tech).

~Olrox