Rocket/Cannon balance

RBL-4NiK8r · Post by **RBL-4NiK8r** » 10 Feb 2010, 09:07

Split from: Re: 2.3 Beta 10 is released!

OK now I am going to try to explan what Mabsterone was trying to tell you brain dead morons, and some of this goes back to a long time ago, so if you cant figure it out when I am done, this is a hopeless case.

Now back in the days of playing on any map getting to Scourge Missiles were one of the smarter things to try for, do to the fact they had longer range then most hardpoints and you could stay out of there range an make a hole in defense, plus they were faster then anything else to research. NOW this is a key point here it dont matter IF you play on a map with 100 oil in base or 1 oil in base, if you go all rockets on the tech tree you will win the game over someone that went all cannons or went for pulse. You get Scourge a good 10-15 mins or so before Rails or Gauss, on high oil maps, not only that you get Ripps and Archies along the way. Let me say this again if I am playing a game with you on a low oil map and you have a plan to go for Gauss you will lose long before you make it to Gauss if I go after Scourge. I am NOT going to waste any of my research center with cannon upgrades because I have no need for them, and I will only open up the things I need in the game to get to Scourge, Ripps and Archies.

This is not about Rockets being more powerful, or cannons being under powered its about the time it takes to get each item, I have not checked Pulse but I trust Mabsterone we are old school in this game, and have way more multiplayer games under our belt them most of uses got together. From what I have been reading you guys just dont get it, this game plays the same on high oil or low, you waste time researching on things that are not going to help you in the end game your dead on either map.

Now the fix maybe simple take out or make cannon research faster in some areas so they make it to there goal around the same time, not 15 mins later. Also if Pulse are set up for Borgs whats Heavy Laser set up for ? In 1.10 they were useless, in most of my MOD's I made I changed them to Bunker Busters and gave them more range because you didnt really have anything that had T3 Bunker Buster weapons oh wait Bunker Buster were the only weapon that use that weapon type as I recall WTF, I also changed Ground Shakers to BB's, an a few VTOL weapons to.

As RJ used to say back in the day its all a matter of Rock, Paper, Scissors in the end, and its not that hard to do, the key thing was Pumpkin back in the day took there time with T1 and most of T2, but never really tested T3 the way it should have been, sure they had T3 tech in the Camp, but it never was really tested in major MP games till after it was released. I do see that Borgs are more useful in game, but 10 of them taking out 25 tanks seems a bit odd to me.

I made a map Borgwars and a MOD that went with it that changed the armor values on all borgs so they didnt die with 1 hit, so they were worth using in that map, and some of the others at the time, its just that no one wanted to use Borgs because they had a bad rap. I recall doing a 8 player FFA T3 game on Ziggy with no base, I blocked off my base with hardpoints capped my oil and started building borgs and transports an took them across the map to a friends base landed on the top of it while all his tanks were outside on the bottom an trashed everything he had, loaded my borgs up and went to the next base, I lost them after that one to AA, and no I didnt win that game but it was funny, and I never laughed so hard after that game.

Thing is you make changes do baby steps and make sure everything is not out of wack, I had a few hundred MOD's back in the day for just about every weapon system in game, and some that never seen the light of day, and one last thing Ripps all attacking the same target is a simple fix in this game, but I see no one showed you that one.

4nE

DraLUSAD · Post by **DraLUSAD** » 10 Feb 2010, 17:38

If a weapon called "Tank Destroyer" "Scourge missile" and other type of Tank killer weapons, are meant to be affective to tank based weapons..... how come they are also affective to buildings too

I am also not sure if its a bug, but, when you start a host and choose a map, you can see a mini version of it, but there is no starting number to indicate there location, however, when a joiner comes in, there screen is black, but, can see where the starting numbers are, its kinda wierd

RBL-4NiK8r · Post by **RBL-4NiK8r** » 10 Feb 2010, 22:18

DraLUSAD wrote:If a weapon called "Tank Destroyer" "Scourge missile" and other type of Tank killer weapons, are meant to be affective to tank based weapons..... how come they are also affective to buildings too

Well I dont recall the stats on everything, but take something like Bunker Busters, if they hit a bunker type hardpoint they used to do like 500% more of base damage to that, and if they hit say a tank they did around 50% of there base damage could have been 25% its been awhile since I looked at them stats.

Now anti-tank weapons did 125% to armor, and 100% or close to that to hardpoints. See the whole idea of this game was to build different units for your attack, not all the same thing, but that never seems to happen, back in the early days I used to always mix a few BB's in with my tanks to get rid of hardpoints faster then just cannons would, the thing was once you got to Pulse they took care of most hardpoints faster then BB's and well out of there firing range.

Anyways each weapon system has a % + or - of what its hitting, an thats why somethings work well and others dont, in T3 battles if one side was going for Pulse Mantis Tracks, then you were better off going with Rail's, Heavy Cannon, and try to hold off for Gauss, but overall tho your tanks have less range if you get in close your will rip the Pulse apart since they have a lot less armor value.

Hope this helps some.

4nE

3drts · Post by **3drts** » 11 Feb 2010, 13:27

Rocket tech tree has all you ever need:
Lancer= AT defense
Lancer Cyborg= uber anti-tank defenses.
Lancer vtol= AA defense
Sams
Ripple rockets = longest range artillery until T-3.....
And when it comes to artillery, I think range is one of the most important factors.
Bunker buster= great anti-structure, in fact, the best of their tech level

Thus rockets are the best artillery, the best AT, the best anti-structure.
They aren't great at anti-personel, but artillery is pretty good against them (ie ripples, or mini-rocket array) - and cyborgs lack any weapons good against hardpoints (cannon cyborgs aren't that good)- a little MG detour, and you are good to go (also gives you supplementary AA)

Laser - only shows up really late, AP and AA only
MG - dead end tech, does not lead to the successor-> lasers, like lancer does to scourge.
Cannons - just too slow- get pwned by rockets, lead to artillery, but takes a long time and a significant detour to get anywhere close to ripples (ie ground shaker), no AA.

Rocket upgrades didn't work in the past: a lancer with no upgrades was competitive against heavy cannons with medium upgrades- after the damage UGs started to work, they started to dominate,
Now that BBs and ripples also get upgraded, rocket tech pwns.

Now cannons might be more competitive if you don't need to research HE mortar shells, HE cannon shells, and HE howitzer shells - if there was just one "HE shells", as there is just one rocket upgrade for lancer, BB, and ripple (3 different weapon damage types, direct and indirect), I think cannons would look like a better option.

Rockets allow you to upgrade artillery, SAMs, and AT rockets all at the same time.
With projectile cannons, not so -
Yes, I know you have mini-rockets first, but with cannons you have MGs first.

The Rocket damage to structure and cyborg Nerf was not enough.
Maybe if the "all rounder" cyborg damage went from 60 -> 80 (modern tanks can fire Armor piercing sabots, or high explosive frag shells that are very effective against infantry) and mortar+howitzers share the same ROF upgrades with cannons (the loading mechanisms of howitzers and cannons are very similar),
Possibly even shared the same damage upgrades (i am still a little uneasy about grouping cannon+artillery damage, one uses sabots, the other fragmentation shells).
Maybe have a separate artillery rocket upgrade?
Sams+ripples use a he explosive frag warhead, bunker busters, lancer, TK use a shaped charge to enhance armor piercing?
Scourge would unlock Arch and seraph, but arch and seraph would use different damage upgrades.

As for lasers, they do seem a little too weak now.
I don't see the 2.3 stats on the wzguide, but I think heavy lasers are way too heavy.
If a pulse is 500, then a heavy laser should only be double to triple that- 1000 to 1,500, and only ≈ double the cost
If we make flash, pulse, heavy analagous to light, medium, and heavy cannons, the cost should go up in the ratio of
75:125:200
and the weight maybe in the ratio of: 1,000:5,000:10,000
That heavy lasers have a weight of 20,000 is ridiculous methinks...
At least half the weight, give them a DPS at least equal to scourge (but of course, the damage modifiers will make scourge more effective vs tracks), and a range equal to scourge.

I think all weapon lines should have weapons with similar DPS, and the difference being damage type and target availability (ie lasers: AA or ground, missiles: direct or indirect, cannons: direct or indirect)

KukY · Post by **KukY** » 11 Feb 2010, 14:27

3drts wrote:Lancer= AT defense
Lancer Cyborg= uber anti-tank defenses,AA defense
Lancer vtol= AA defense > > > > > > > > > > > ^ ^

Rocket Cyborgs can also shoot air.

RBL-4NiK8r · Post by **RBL-4NiK8r** » 11 Feb 2010, 17:56

KukY wrote:
3drts wrote:Lancer= AT defense
Lancer Cyborg= uber anti-tank defenses,AA defense
Lancer vtol= AA defense > > > > > > > > > > > ^ ^
Rocket Cyborgs can also shoot air.

Lancer Borgs used to fire at VTOL's in 1.10 there AA damage was very low, around 25% as I recall, so they were by no means away to deal with VTOL's, but a good back up.

4nE

lav_coyote25 · Post by **lav_coyote25** » 11 Feb 2010, 17:59

scourge ( not the bigger one) are awesome now - at the end of the research tree - 1 hit one kill.. depending on the body of the vtol.... gotta luv em.

xD

Post by **Zarel** » 12 Feb 2010, 03:13

Okay, we still have like two threads on this, but at least they're somewhat consolidated.

Now, I know there's an issue with rocket/cannon balance.

I've made cannons stronger and rockets weaker than in 1.10, but it's still not enough.

One of the reasons rockets are stronger is because there was a bug in 1.10 that made rocket upgrades useless. That's since been fixed, and you know how Warzone upgrade progressions are - fully upgraded weapons are 5x to 9x more powerful than un-upgraded weapons.

There's also the thing that structures have 2x as much HP as they did in 1.10 - one of Troman's changes that I left in out of respect for his judgment.

Now, I think the solutions is to further nerf rockets, and rearrange cannons to be more interesting. Specifically, making Hyper Velocity Cannon and Assault Cannon earlier-game, so cannon users had more weapon types in comparison with rocket users.

One of my ideas was to drag Plasma Cannon down, to be a late-T2 cannon. Maybe tone down the splash and damage, and increase the range.

Thoughts?

RBL-4NiK8r · Post by **RBL-4NiK8r** » 12 Feb 2010, 05:43

Well I think some of it has more to do with timing it takes to burn threw cannon tech, as for nerfing them I guess that depends on what you do, just taking damage down really dont fix the problem. From my POV Light and Med cannons were more a less pointless in game, there range was less then rockets, and lacked the damage. As for moving HPV cannon thats hard to say, having the Assault Cannon sooner would be nice, an getting the Twin Assault Cannon at the end of T2.

Also whats up with the Seraph Missile Array they dont have any range now. Also i will toy around with some more things to get more of a feel on things.

4nE

Post by **Zarel** » 12 Feb 2010, 05:56

RBL-4NiK8r wrote:Well I think some of it has more to do with timing it takes to burn threw cannon tech, as for nerfing them I guess that depends on what you do, just taking damage down really dont fix the problem. From my POV Light and Med cannons were more a less pointless in game, there range was less then rockets, and lacked the damage. As for moving HPV cannon thats hard to say, having the Assault Cannon sooner would be nice, an getting the Twin Assault Cannon at the end of T2.

I'll also be increasing the damage of the existing cannons.

I'm thinking new order will be:

T1

- Light Cannon (35s-20) (splash: 18, 0.5 tiles)

- Hyper Velocity Cannon (65-12v)
- Medium Cannon (60s-15) (splash: 30, 1 tile)

- Assault Cannon (35s-37.5) (splash: 25, 1 tile)

T2

- Heavy Cannon (120s-10) (splash: 60, 1.5 tiles) prereq MC
- Plasma Cannon (180s-10) (splash: 180, 0.5 tiles; burn: 180, 1 tile, 2 sec) prereq HPVC

- Twin Assault Cannon (60-37.5) (splash: 40, 1.5 tiles) prereq AC

RBL-4NiK8r wrote:Also whats up with the Seraph Missile Array they dont have any range now. Also i will toy around with some more things to get more of a feel on things.

It's no longer a mid-point between Ripple and Archie, but now it's an upgraded MRL. Hence the rename.

Mabsterone · Post by **Mabsterone** » 12 Feb 2010, 14:06

I tried some mg followed by cannon games:

First of all to say, canon got beefed up seriuosly, which is already a good thing in comparison to the 2.2 versions ( the last one i played before )

There are 2 major issues i found:

The lack of long range artillery in the first section of the game.
WHile the rockets tec gets ripple at about 20 mins, howitzer need 8-10 mins more.
In addition, the first howi does not match ripple in any means, neither in range or in damage.

This is basically based on the fact, thts its researched "naked" ( non upgraded ) and ripple gains already a lot by the existing rocket tec you had to research.

I do not mind the lack of range ( rockets are simply supposed to fly further then bullets ), but tpgether with the low damge/need of lots of upgrade research its just step tp reach groundshakers, which is another couple of mins later.
There is no way to survive or defend your position against a fortified rocket player tryinfg to ripple you to death.

My suggetion:
- move the howis a bit earlier ( like one less mortar upgrade ) or the ripples later in research
- combine the ballers tec ( everything that shoots ) like the rocket tec

Explanation:
Rockets have basically 3 tecs to research: minis ( wich should match mg ), lancers ( which should match cannons ) annd tankkillers/scourge ( which should match rail/gauss)

Same should be for cannons. Just forget the artillery upgrades and use mg / cannon upgrades for mg, mortar howis and set the rail/gauss tree similar in usage to the scourge one. Maybe even thinking about a new endgame ballers artillery, placed in the tec somewhere around ripples

As a base line i would make ballers shoot shorter but do more damage per miute then rockets. So an endgame ballers artillery could be a rapidfire groundshaker or a slowfiring range extended ( in comparison to groundshaker ) gauss artillery.

Second issue i found:
Gauss comes in very late. With rockets you get a pretty decent upgrade with tankkiller end of t2 already, which is at least matched a bit by heavy cannons, but then you get your final weapon directly after this and can start with full tec reseach for endgame weapon and artillery by using 2-3 researchers to get all.

With canons, you need to survive the tankkiller wich is doable, but then reaching for rail/gauss takes way too long against scourge. ANd in addition, you need 5+ researchers to do so, doing final cannon upgrades, beefing up your howitzers and reaching for rail/gauss. Bottom line, rocket tec can be researched and you got 2 free for other tec, ballers tec needs all researchers.

Suggestion:
Melt the tec together ( throw away artillery upgrades and merge them into shell upgrades ) and move rail a bit to the front and gauss a lot.

I do not ask for the weapons be avaialbe at the same time, like gauss would be avail at the same gametime then scourge, but things need to move closer together in my opinion to make the cannon tree an interesting choice again.

As said above..i would just balance ballers vs rockets by distance and damage.

So the rocket player can play from a fortified ground while the canon player allways needs to go closer and control territority to get his artillery in reach, wich is more deadly then. Same for ground units, rockets live from range, ballers from close combat.

RIght now flamers show this principle quite good.... they are extrem deadly in short range combat early in the game, but will eaten up by any long distance weapon wich is abale to evade their close range attacks.

A balancing like this between rockets and cannons would be great too.

Edit: is it possible to get a chart/interactive web applet wich just not shows the tec you need to reach one special weapon/upgrade but also the amount of energy/research time needed to get there. I think this would provide a good base for understanding whats going on ion the games.

Btw.. all my experience are based on game play, i rather ever look into weapon stats. So please dont complain : but howis do more damge then ripples if i said the opposite..it just reflects game experience and how much howis die vs ripples in a cb batlle.

Second edit: The freed research slots from artillery should be moved into some more flamer tec imo... it needs a endgame weapon too imo..would be fun.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » 13 Feb 2010, 13:20

T1

- Light Cannon (35s-20) (splash: 18, 0.5 tiles)

- Hyper Velocity Cannon (65-12v)
- Medium Cannon (60s-15) (splash: 30, 1 tile)

- Assault Cannon (35s-37.5) (splash: 25, 1 tile)

T2

- Heavy Cannon (120s-10) (splash: 60, 1.5 tiles) prereq MC
- Plasma Cannon (180s-10) (splash: 180, 0.5 tiles; burn: 180, 1 tile, 2 sec) prereq HPVC

- Twin Assault Cannon (60-37.5) (splash: 40, 1.5 tiles) prereq AC

Will this not obselete medium cannon, if you put HPV cannon earlier in the game? Something seems to need to be done though, because medium cannons are not all that useful.
I agree that the ripple rockets come much too early in the game - They need to be made much weaker, or else take more time to research, to balance with the howitzers. Scourge coming straight after tank killer is a big problem too. Tank killer upgrades mk2 and mk3 before scourge would about balance things out?

It's also a big shame that the MG tech is a dead end - Could this not lead to something else? Maybe HE bullets leading to a weapon something a little like assault cannon (fast ROF and medium damage) in T2 and then in T3 maybe incendary bullets?

Assault Cannon earlier-game

Great!

One of my ideas was to drag Plasma Cannon down, to be a late-T2 cannon. Maybe tone down the splash and damage, and increase the range.

Sounds good, but then we lose a T3 cannon tech. Could the plasma cannon be a late, toned down T2 cannon (which would be great), but then improve in T3 to something a bit better? Maybe even just more upgrades for it to take it to a level a bit better than it currently is?

Scourge would unlock Arch and seraph, but arch and seraph would use different damage upgrades.

Good idea! I agree.

As for lasers, they do seem a little too weak now.

Stronger lasers would mean rockets + lasers > cannon + lasers? Lasers are too weak though.

Post by **Zarel** » 13 Feb 2010, 22:21

Mats wrote:Will this not obselete medium cannon, if you put HPV cannon earlier in the game? Something seems to need to be done though, because medium cannons are not all that useful.
I agree that the ripple rockets come much too early in the game - They need to be made much weaker, or else take more time to research, to balance with the howitzers. Scourge coming straight after tank killer is a big problem too. Tank killer upgrades mk2 and mk3 before scourge would about balance things out?

HPV cannon now has slower reload, no splash damage, and less HP. So Medium Cannon will still be useful. Medium Cannon is basically an early-game Heavy Cannon.

I have other plans for making TK earlier than Scourge.

Ripple Rockets and Archies are both planned to be weakened.

Mats wrote:It's also a big shame that the MG tech is a dead end - Could this not lead to something else? Maybe HE bullets leading to a weapon something a little like assault cannon (fast ROF and medium damage) in T2 and then in T3 maybe incendary bullets?

Nah, MG leads into lasers. It's just a bonus that you don't need MG tech to get lasers.

Mats wrote:Sounds good, but then we lose a T3 cannon tech. Could the plasma cannon be a late, toned down T2 cannon (which would be great), but then improve in T3 to something a bit better? Maybe even just more upgrades for it to take it to a level a bit better than it currently is?

Well, T3 cannon techs are rails. There are no T3 rocket techs, either.

Mats wrote:Good idea! I agree.

We have no room for another damage upgrade line, nor an empty subclass slot to put them in.

They're all missiles, anyway - it would just get confusing...

Mats wrote:Stronger lasers would mean rockets + lasers > cannon + lasers? Lasers are too weak though.

I'll give them 5 more damage, but that's it. :/

3drts · Post by **3drts** » 14 Feb 2010, 02:09

meh, I don't really agree with moving assault cannon earlier, and having heavy cannon be T-2.

Heavy cannon should just be a scaled up medium cannon, it shouldn't take much extra research to get it.
This may move medium cannons to a spot like twin machinegun.... not very useful, just an interim weapon.
We have 3 "standard" cannon sizes, and 2 AT rocket sizes (considering tank killer to basically be Heavy Lancer).
Going by the text: An assault cannon is a high velocity 76mm cannon, and the medium cannon fires a 76mm shell at a lower velocity.
Instead of HPV replacing Medium cannon, I think the assault cannon should replace it: doing the same damage and splash as the medium cannon, with increased range and ROF.
"Standard" cannons should be T-1, Assault/HPV versions should be T-2 (consider the AC= MC, Twin AC = T-2 analog of HC), Gauss = T-3.
Make HC available earlier, not AC.

If ripples use lancer upgrades, I really think howies should use cannon upgrades.

As to T-3 weapons: part of the problem is that scourge has only 1 "size", whereas gauss has 3, and only the biggest is a real competitor with scourge.

Likewise, lasers previously only had 1 "size" flash and pulse were pretty much the same weight, and only 1 upgrade was needed between them - which is why you've made pulse replace flash- now we have heavy, but considering these are primarily anti-cyborg, and pulse is used in preference to heavy, this is not an issue in the laser tech tree.

Could we have a "rail gun technology" tech that unlocks all three gauss weapons at once? (or the follow ups are cheap+quick researching like the first mg upgrade)- then the weapon sizes would be used according to their cost and weights -> now you only use rail because you are waiting for gauss.

Then at the point where you previously got gauss cannon, thats when you could get long range"gauss artillery"

Rockets: AT+ Artillery -> eventually leads to AA (sams)
Cannons: mainly AT + Artillery
Machine guns: AP and/to AA
Lasers: AP and/to AA
Gauss: mainly AT

Gauss needs either an AA or an artillery variant, and that lancer borgs and vtols are effective against other VTOLs, suggests cannons need to lead to some form of AA, or to be stronger in another category (Ie better than rockets in tank battles, maybe due to high turret HP, or better in artillery wars)
As I said in another thread, Maybe the "Quad 80mm" cyclone flak turret should be grouped in with the cannons, unlocked after assault cannon.
Maybe make assault cannons able to target Air?

Post by **Zarel** » 14 Feb 2010, 10:54

3drts wrote:meh, I don't really agree with moving assault cannon earlier, and having heavy cannon be T-2.

Heavy cannon should just be a scaled up medium cannon, it shouldn't take much extra research to get it.
This may move medium cannons to a spot like twin machinegun.... not very useful, just an interim weapon.
We have 3 "standard" cannon sizes, and 2 AT rocket sizes (considering tank killer to basically be Heavy Lancer).
Going by the text: An assault cannon is a high velocity 76mm cannon, and the medium cannon fires a 76mm shell at a lower velocity.
Instead of HPV replacing Medium cannon, I think the assault cannon should replace it: doing the same damage and splash as the medium cannon, with increased range and ROF.
"Standard" cannons should be T-1, Assault/HPV versions should be T-2 (consider the AC= MC, Twin AC = T-2 analog of HC), Gauss = T-3.
Make HC available earlier, not AC.

I disagree. Medium Cannon has always been something you use while waiting for Heavy Cannon - these changes just give more time before Heavy Cannon, so you're more likely to use Medium Cannon.

In my new system, HPV would no longer replace Medium Cannon.

MC/HC has always occupied one niche, AC/TAC another, and HPV a third. My changes just make these differences clearer, so cannon players have more choices, like rocket players have the Bunker Buster, the Lancer/TK, and the Ripples.

3drts wrote:If ripples use lancer upgrades, I really think howies should use cannon upgrades.

I agree, but I think that's too big of a change for a rebalance effort. It could get confusing.

Plus, the ripples/lancer upgrades make sense because the upgrades are called "Rocket" upgrades, and the weapon names are "Lancer AT Rocket" and "Ripple Rockets" - it's clear that both weapons receive the upgrades. With "Howitzer" and "Cannon" - what would you call the upgrades? "HEAT Howitzer/Cannon Shells"?

3drts wrote:As to T-3 weapons: part of the problem is that scourge has only 1 "size", whereas gauss has 3, and only the biggest is a real competitor with scourge.

Well, that's one of the differences between the two.

How's about reversing the range order?

Needle - range 14
Rail - range 13
Gauss - range 12

You'd be able to start the rails with a stronger weapon.

3drts wrote:Likewise, lasers previously only had 1 "size" flash and pulse were pretty much the same weight, and only 1 upgrade was needed between them - which is why you've made pulse replace flash- now we have heavy, but considering these are primarily anti-cyborg, and pulse is used in preference to heavy, this is not an issue in the laser tech tree.

Yeah, well, I'm planning on buffing Heavy Laser a bit more. I bet people will be more likely to use it then.

3drts wrote:Could we have a "rail gun technology" tech that unlocks all three gauss weapons at once? (or the follow ups are cheap+quick researching like the first mg upgrade)- then the weapon sizes would be used according to their cost and weights -> now you only use rail because you are waiting for gauss.

I don't think so... then no one would ever use Rail Gun. Or Needle Gun, for that matter.

3drts wrote:Then at the point where you previously got gauss cannon, thats when you could get long range"gauss artillery"

Might be difficult to add a new weapon... What would gauss artillery really be?

3drts wrote:Gauss needs either an AA or an artillery variant, and that lancer borgs and vtols are effective against other VTOLs, suggests cannons need to lead to some form of AA, or to be stronger in another category (Ie better than rockets in tank battles, maybe due to high turret HP, or better in artillery wars)
As I said in another thread, Maybe the "Quad 80mm" cyclone flak turret should be grouped in with the cannons, unlocked after assault cannon.
Maybe make assault cannons able to target Air?

Yes, it's a good idea to make the cyclone require cannon upgrades, like how Whirlwind requires MG upgrades...

HPV will be able to target air. Assault cannons are too unwieldy to target air; they'd just be frustrating.

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