new weapons and amphibious propulsion

[Olrox]

Ok, 16 megajoules for piercing WHAT?
You didn't comment materials or armor thickness...
I shouldn't really have taken you seriously. I won't from now on, I promise...
I'm outta here also, got more productive discussions elsewhere.

[Zarel]

So the SRMA as close-range anti-defence artillery didn't work out, does that entail a revert to the Angel missile artillery?

No, I just renamed SRMA to Seraph Missile Array.

[Bethrezen]

hi all

with regards to AA guns attacking ground units I have an idea how this could work

at present when you get mini gun tech you get two types of assault gun single and duel one for AA and the other for ground

what I'm wondering is why have 2 different types mini guns are general purpose weapons and there for should be able to attack any units and it should be equally effective no matter what it is firing so why not just combine them in to 1 weapon ?

also in the later stages of the game assault guns are totally ineffective they just don’t have enough punch so why not add a new heavy general purpose weapon designed to supersede the assault gun for the later levels of the game

it might also be an idea to add an ammo upgrade that gives the bullets an explosive war head to further help assault guns keep pace with the up-rated armour found in later stages of the game

also I note that rail gun tech seems to have a few problems for a start its weaker then missiles right up till the very end its also slower firing then missiles and it also has less range right up until the very end making it completely useless

shouldn't rail guns actually have a rapid rate of fire because as I understand it a rail gun is basically an up rated 50 cal riffle that fires magnetically propelled hyper velocity round that liquefy in the air due to the friction generated by it moving at close to the speed of light allowing it to penetrate virtually any armour as it just burns a hole right through it

unless you are talking about the bigger versions rail cannons which are more like the long range cannon you would find on a battle ship

[Zarel]

at present when you get mini gun tech you get two types of assault gun single and duel one for AA and the other for ground

...no, they both work equally well against air and ground. The twin assault gun is just a stronger version of the assault gun.

what I'm wondering is why have 2 different types mini guns are general purpose weapons and there for should be able to attack any units and it should be equally effective no matter what it is firing so why not just combine them in to 1 weapon ?

The Assault Gun is T2, the Twin Assault Gun is T3. There are two of them because one upgrades into the other one.

also in the later stages of the game assault guns are totally ineffective they just don’t have enough punch so why not add a new heavy general purpose weapon designed to supersede the assault gun for the later levels of the game

There already is. It's called a laser.

Furthermore, twin assault gun holds up pretty well until you get lasers.

it might also be an idea to add an ammo upgrade that gives the bullets an explosive war head to further help assault guns keep pace with the up-rated armour found in later stages of the game

You're not supposed to use assault guns against the up-rated armor of walls and heavy tanks in the first place. <_< They're AP weapons. You use them against cyborgs, VTOLs, and other lightly armored targets.

also I note that rail gun tech seems to have a few problems for a start its weaker then missiles right up till the very end its also slower firing then missiles and it also has less range right up until the very end making it completely useless

Rails have higher HP (Scourge: 20, Gauss: 600), and do more damage against everything except tanks (don't forget about multipliers; rails have significantly more favorable multipliers than missiles). Missiles are the ones that are underpowered.

shouldn't rail guns actually have a rapid rate of fire because as I understand it a rail gun is basically an up rated 50 cal riffle that fires magnetically propelled hyper velocity round that liquefy in the air due to the friction generated by it moving at close to the speed of light allowing it to penetrate virtually any armour as it just burns a hole right through it

Yes, you're mostly right (except it doesn't go at near the speed of light, and it doesn't liquefy). But that just means the projectile moves quickly. Not that it reloads quickly.

unless you are talking about the bigger versions rail cannons which are more like the long range cannon you would find on a battle ship

Yeah, that too. They're pretty much the same thing (except it doesn't go at near the speed of light, and it doesn't liquefy).

[Olrox]

Actually, Rail Weapons and Gauss weapons are very different kinds of weapons.
Briefly, Gauss cannons use coils as electric magnets to pull the projectile to the center of the magnectic field. When the projectile is very close to the center of the magnectic field, a motion sensor turns off the electric magnet and activates the next coil, pulling the projectile further and accelerating it according to physics formulas everyone should have studied at high school. The yellow "stripes" on the game's models are the coils.

Rail cannons, or rail guns, work in a very different way, the only common aspect is that it uses electric current. There are two rails (US navy used tungsten rails for tests), which are submitted to very high voltages. The generated potential difference of the electric charges, passing through the projectile, causes insane ammounts of repulsion, accelerating the projectile at extreme rates. As the electric current needs to pass through the projectile, and this kind of passage needs contact, there is a high ammount of friction (huge ammounts due to the speed achieved by the projectile) which caused even tungstenium rails to melt, in US navy tests. The results where phenomenal, the kinectic energy was absurd, but they couldn't make rails that lasted more than a single shot. Therefore, they would need to change the rails for each shot, discarding them after that. As disposable tungstenium rails are hardly economically feasible, they were stuck with the need of developing high conductivity materials with extreme fusion temperatures.

However, I don't think that the thermal energy of the projectile's points of contact with the rail, due to friction, would get to the rest of the projectile in time: The speed is too high, it would melt after the projectile hit the target, probably. If I remember right, one of the US navy tests resulted in speeds of about 7 times the speed of sound.

Rail guns would be extremely powerful weapons, and would have extremely long reload time, because even if the material technology evolved so that the rails wouldn't melt in every shot and wouldn't deform, the gun would need to cool down before shooting again, and temperatures would be very high. That would be a superweapon. And, as it is a linear trajectory weapon, it would need favorable firing positions (atop a high tower or, as the current game's superweapon, which is also linear trajectory, mounted on a satellite and put on orbit).

I said that to clarify that most of the characteristics of the game's later cannons point out that they're gauss weapons, and not rail guns.

And don't come with wiki user guide links to say that "Olrox is stupid, it is entitled Rail Guns on the topic": There is an obvious mistake, I'm not telling anyone to change it, I'm just saying that it is wrong in any way, either naming one of the "Rail guns" as a "Gauss Cannon", or naming the category and one of those weapons that are likely to be Gauss Cannons as "Rail Guns".

[Zarel]

And don't come with wiki user guide links to say that "Olrox is stupid, it is entitled Rail Guns on the topic": There is an obvious mistake, I'm not telling anyone to change it, I'm just saying that it is wrong in any way, either naming one of the "Rail guns" as a "Gauss Cannon", or naming the category and one of those weapons that are likely to be Gauss Cannons as "Rail Guns".

Gauss cannon (and mass driver) isn't a type of rail gun, just because it's in the "rails" category. :/

For the same reason, plasma cannon isn't a type of laser, just because it's in the "laser" category. Why doesn't anyone ever complain about that?

It's not a mistake, it's just what the subclass is called.

You can call them "electromagnetic" and "energy", respectively, if you're so bothered by that. <_< I'm tempted to at least change "electromagnetic" because of the number of people who complain about gauss cannons not being rails. We know.

[Olrox]

I know you know, that's why I said that I don't want it to change, just wanted to make the difference clear so that no one exemplifies gauss cannon as real rail guns and vice-versa.

[wolfbr]

Bethrezen wrote:it might also be an idea to add an ammo upgrade that gives the bullets an explosive war head to further help assault guns keep pace with the up-rated armour found in later stages of the game

i like this idea
see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnrizaO-X00
but, explosives bullets is effective vs ciborgs and some effective vs wall, and have radius damange(0.2 or 0.4,it varies of weapon for weapon)

about sniper gun, it would have 3 types of weapons in warzone:

light sniper rifle(T1)
medium sniper rifle(T2)
heavy sniper rifle(T3)

[Olrox]

I wouldn't call a tank-mounted gun a "rifle". I'd rather call it a High precison gun.
Actually, no, I would call it a HPV cannon

[Zarel]

about sniper gun, it would have 3 types of weapons in warzone:

light sniper rifle(T1)
medium sniper rifle(T2)
heavy sniper rifle(T3)

...why?

[Avestron]

Took me long enough to get back to this.

General purpose rifle would turn out to be a "very light cannon", I think Don't think it would have any practical use this way, with regular range.

A machine gun and a cannon are basically the same weapon taken down two different routes. The machine gun focuses upon getting as many projectiles down range as possible. The cannon focuses upon getting as heavy a round down range as possible.

The rifle focuses upon getting firepower far down range with some accuracy. Since it is the middle-road in ammunition caliber its an ideal candidate as first researched weapon which leads to both machine gun technology and cannon technology.

The following are pretty representative of what I think would be good representations of the rifle

T1 - Combat Rifle - HP 100, Damage 20, ROF 40, Accuracy 70%-80%, Range 6-10

T2 - Sniper Rifle - HP 125, Damage 40, ROF 30, Accuracy 70%-80%, Range 10-14

T3 - S-Mag-Rifle - HP 150, Damage 80, ROF 20, Accuracy 70%-80%, Range 14-18

MG and Rifle wouldn't share ammunition, also. ...

I do understand that ammunition would vary but I'd say that rifle rounds would be closer related to the machine gun than the cannon, which develops towards shells rather than bullets.

It is plausible for a whole other area of ammunition-development research to apply to rifles, but I personally think that the rifle ROF/ Accuracy related researches will be sufficient to make it a tree in its own right and it would benefit both MG and Rifle research to have them both benefit from bullet damage research.

After all it would seem rather redundant to see depleted uranium tipped machine gun rounds be coupled with wussy sniper rifle rounds of similar caliber but little penetrating power. This is why the T1 rifle round would be equivalent to the heavy machine gun round with increased round velocity.

[NaxShaleChan]

I'm still not seeing why the current cannons have such a low ROF. As far as I can tell, the light cannons mounted on real-life armor (eg APCs, MICVs, IFVs) such as the 25 mm Bushmaster or Oerlikon 20 mm cannons or GAU-8 30 mm DU cannons have a relatively high ROFs, from 200 RPM for the Bushmaster to 4000+ RPM for the GAU-8. Either way, the light cannon seems to me to have a really low ROF.

[Zarel]

I'm still not seeing why the current cannons have such a low ROF. As far as I can tell, the light cannons mounted on real-life armor (eg APCs, MICVs, IFVs) such as the 25 mm Bushmaster or Oerlikon 20 mm cannons or GAU-8 30 mm DU cannons have a relatively high ROFs, from 200 RPM for the Bushmaster to 4000+ RPM for the GAU-8. Either way, the light cannon seems to me to have a really low ROF.

Current cannons have fairly high ROF...

FASTEST
machineguns
flak AA
mini-rockets
flamers
cannons <- cannons are here
lasers
rails
EMP cannon
missiles
mortars
rockets
howitzers
bombs
SLOWEST

[NaxShaleChan]

Hmm... according to my research, a Browning .50 cal will do from 450 to 750 RPM, a M249 will do upwards of 700 RPM... Makes our MGs look slow. I have a feeling that WZs light and medium cannons don't fire anywhere near half or a third as fast as the MGs... I suppose it could just be cosmetics and audio, but still. It bugs me.

[Avestron]

The problem with veeery high ROF is that the engine cannot handle it, apparently. :c)

Perhaps a solution here would be to introduce the concept of burst fire to weapons that would otherwise press the envelope for performance.

Replace the current bullet animation with an animation involving 2,3,4 or even 5 bullets and edit the weapons files and damage calculation to consider the penetration of a single bullet within a volley, multiplying it by the number of shots in a volley. Accuracy could either be refined within the volley or simply between volleys.

Viola. That ROF 200 assault gun is suddently effectively an ROF 1000 assault gun.

As for the light cannon - the assault cannon is effectively its replacement in later techs. Its down to the loading system of the turret.