Rebalance 0.6.0

[Zarel]

http://guide.wz2100.net/rebalance

Rebalance is back! Except without support for 2.1.

You, um, really don't need to download this, since in like two days, 2.2.4 will be released, and it will have this balance included. I guess the Rebalance Mods are more about to relive 2.2.4 balance in the future when we're playing 3.2 or something.

I guess it's more about being able to read the changelog about what's new in 2.2.4?

[Per]

Many good changes. I think the VTOL balancing went a bit overboard. AA is massively upgraded, and mini-pod can also hit air... I still dislike the mini-pod exception, since it looks quite like a hack out of place, especially now that mini-pod has a successor that does not hit air.

[Per]

Also, what is the theory behind the "Most projectiles 1.5x faster. Should reduce sync problems"? That part of the commit was news to me. (And when it comes to code-related changes, I do not much like surprises.)

[BulletMagnet]

i'm liking the sound of 150% projectile velocity, irrespective of netcode.

[Per]

Oh, and you forgot to mention changing the plasma cannon. It is now insane. Since it is a end-of-the-game weapon, that might be okay, but the exact change should go into the final changelog. Also, perhaps they should have a minimum firing distance to avoid them killing themselves by firing at close targets (yes, this was actually a problem in a test game of mine).

[Zarel]

Many good changes. I think the VTOL balancing went a bit overboard. AA is massively upgraded, and mini-pod can also hit air... I still dislike the mini-pod exception, since it looks quite like a hack out of place, especially now that mini-pod has a successor that does not hit air.

Meh, AA was only minorly upgraded. Stormy got a huge boost, but it's still not as powerful as it was in 1.10. The other ones got minor boosts... I can revert those, if you want. Changing the AA multiplier from 80% back to 100% was probably enough.

Also, what is the theory behind the "Most projectiles 1.5x faster. Should reduce sync problems"? That part of the commit was news to me. (And when it comes to code-related changes, I do not much like surprises.)

We definitely did talk about it. Lemme see if I can find the thread.

Meh, I can't find it. But it's not a code-related change. It's just so other units are less likely to dodge out of the way of a projectile's path if the projectile is moving faster.

Oh, and you forgot to mention changing the plasma cannon. It is now insane. Since it is a end-of-the-game weapon, that might be okay, but the exact change should go into the final changelog. Also, perhaps they should have a minimum firing distance to avoid them killing themselves by firing at close targets (yes, this was actually a problem in a test game of mine).

The Plasma Cannon thing was supposed to be a surprise. For reference, the only thing I did was increase its splash radius from 1 to 3.5. I'll add a minimum range, I guess, but to do that I'd need to increase its range, which I feel would make it even more overpowered.

How did you test it? Plasma Cannon will probably seem overpowered if you get it quickly by cheating, but that's true of most weapons.

[Terminator]

Oh, and you forgot to mention changing the plasma cannon. It is now insane. Since it is a end-of-the-game weapon, that might be okay, but the exact change should go into the final changelog. Also, perhaps they should have a minimum firing distance to avoid them killing themselves by firing at close targets (yes, this was actually a problem in a test game of mine).

The Plasma Cannon thing was supposed to be a surprise. For reference, the only thing I did was increase its splash radius from 1 to 3.5. I'll add a minimum range, I guess, but to do that I'd need to increase its range, which I feel would make it even more overpowered.

How did you test it? Plasma Cannon will probably seem overpowered if you get it quickly by cheating, but that's true of most weapons.

I had wanted to add some comments about Plasma Cannon, but I saw that Per already done that.

May be better reduce splash damage to 2.5 & increase minimum range. IMHO.?
(btw I've got Plasma Canon from T1 for 85 minutes (alone) - I could say its pretty much fast)

[Zarel]

I had wanted to add some comments about Plasma Cannon, but I saw that Per already done that.

May be better reduce splash damage to 2.5 & increase minimum range. IMHO.?
(btw I've got Plasma Canon from T1 for 85 minutes (alone) - I could say its pretty much fast)

Actually, it's currently 2.5. I dunno why I said 3.5.

Warzone has bugs regarding minimum range. You heard all the complaints about Tank Killer bugs (one of the few weapons that still have it). We keep it in for Tank Killer since it's a light weapon and easy to move out of range. Plasma Cannon is heavy and has no such advantage.

I can tune down the splash to 2, or the ROF, but I don't really want to nerf anything else.

[zydonk]

Uh-huh, you're not losing it, Zarel, are you? For what it's worth, gave the 1.10 mod (Delphinio's?) a spin for old time's sake. Guess what? It was a very refreshing experience. Everything is harder: weapons hit harder but the vehicles can take much of it. Now if only I could play the original Aivolution with it, I think I would give the present rebal a miss.

As any girl will tell you, knowing when to stop is half the fun...

[Zarel]

Everything is harder: weapons hit harder but the vehicles can take much of it.

Erm, what's the difference? This is the single advantage of 1.10 you list, and it makes absolutely no sense. If weapons hit harder but vehicles can take more damage, wouldn't it end up as the exact same number of hits required to destroy a vehicle? Are you saying repairing is slower? Are you saying structures have less HP? (That's one of Troman's changes, btw, not mine.)

You may not notice the disadvantages of 1.10, but many of them are obvious. Truck rushing. Unbalanced weapons.

Plus, many of what you perceive to be the disadvantages of the current rebalance may be Troman's changes, not mine. Most of my changes have been rather minor in comparison to his.

[zydonk]

Sorry, Z. I'm not trying to stir things up. I have previously expressed my liking for the rebal you created initially.

My post above is a response to what seems to me now a tendency to over-rebal the "vanilla" (ie, non-modded) game. Start from the position that you are neither going to get it right nor satisfy every player. Consider that balancing a game like this will never be more than an art, and so a reflection of the tastes of the rebalancer. There were clear ideas of what could be improved in v1.10, and I will assume that most of these have already been achieved. Okay, then other possible rebals become apparent. The question then is, How far should the vanilla rebal go?

I have argued that the vanilla should aim to be tolerably well rebalanced, and that any refinements on this should be offered as mods, to be used as suited the mood and inclinations of players. It seems to me, Z, from the response of seasoned players here, that you might be going too far now with the vanilla rebal.

As for myself, I was happy enough for years playing v1.10. I didn't care for troman's rebal and that subject got very well ventilated. I have gone along with your rebals, trusting your judgement (perhaps we are temperamentally similiar players), and only cavil now because others - with more experience than me in mp especially - are questioning your judgement. It might be time for you to consider offering these latest refinements as a mod, where they can be tried out. Perhaps this could lead to some valid improvements for the vanilla bal.

When I say that v1.10 seems to have more smack, I mean I get a greater sense of conflict than I do with v224. This has the effect of slowing the game but it also means that almost every battle is critical. What has surprised me most, is the aa/vtol bal: I really had to scramble to get an adequate defence against even a few vtol raids. That's the way it should be.

[Zarel]

I have argued that the vanilla should aim to be tolerably well rebalanced, and that any refinements on this should be offered as mods, to be used as suited the mood and inclinations of players. It seems to me, Z, from the response of seasoned players here, that you might be going too far now with the vanilla rebal.

I dunno, I haven't seen all that much backlash. And by that I mean "any". Okay, there were people who disliked the MRP-hitting-air thing, but the last time I had a poll there was overwhelming support for it, and I do think it makes sense.

For this latest rebalance, 50% of what I did was undo my previous balancing.

Plus, most of my balancing is still the type that are, as you said, "clear ideas for how to improve 1.10". I'm still messing around with late game weapons, hoping to make more of them viable. It shouldn't affect the earlygame feel much.

As for myself, I was happy enough for years playing v1.10. I didn't care for troman's rebal and that subject got very well ventilated. I have gone along with your rebals, trusting your judgement (perhaps we are temperamentally similiar players), and only cavil now because others - with more experience than me in mp especially - are questioning your judgement. It might be time for you to consider offering these latest refinements as a mod, where they can be tried out. Perhaps this could lead to some valid improvements for the vanilla bal.

Could you forward these questionings? I hate it when people talk behind my back about me, so I have no idea what I'm supposed to fix.

When I say that v1.10 seems to have more smack, I mean I get a greater sense of conflict than I do with v224. This has the effect of slowing the game but it also means that almost every battle is critical. What has surprised me most, is the aa/vtol bal: I really had to scramble to get an adequate defence against even a few vtol raids. That's the way it should be.

Can you be more specific? What specific changes are causing this "greater sense of conflict"? Feel free to consult: http://guide.wz2100.net/1.10/w/ (Guide for 1.10) it might be easier to see what's changed.

The only thing I can think of is Troman's doubling of structure HP, and his decreasing of unit body prices. (I scaled back both, but they're still there.) I can scale them back even more, if you want.

The AA/VTOL balance hasn't changed much - I only increased Hurricane damage back to 1.10 levels, no more. That was one of those "undo my previous balancing" things.

I do think AA/VTOL balance is one of those things 1.10 did very wrong, though. I'd rather move towards generalist appeal in terms of VTOL effectiveness, than keep "old-timer" appeal. I guess you can play an older Rebalance version if you want the same VTOL balance? I'm not planning on keeping VTOLs the same for that long.