Anti-Air testing

[Deus Siddis]

Speed is:

basespeed = propmult*engine*propsizemodifier/totalweight, capped at propmaxspeed

speed = basespeed*expmult

propsizemodifier is the 0.25, 0.75, 1.0 thing. I really dislike it, and am trying to get rid of it.

Wow, I had no idea there was such a thing. And it looks like a real hack, you are right to want to remove it.

I don't really see much point in propmaxspeed either. What's the point in using lighter bodies if you don't get a speed advantage? (It's not like the cost benefit is so great on its own).

[Zarel]

I don't really see much point in propmaxspeed either. What's the point in using lighter bodies if you don't get a speed advantage? (It's not like the cost benefit is so great on its own).

Well, propulsions get three factors that affect unit speed: propmult, propmaxspeed, and weight. For things like VTOLs, the maxspeed prevents light weapons on light bodies from going faster than the game engine can handle. The other ones are more about balance; especially the way the game is currently balanced, most units hit propmaxspeed pretty easily, and their true speed would be unbalancedly high without the artificial limit. I think I mentioned that Deiz was going to try to rebalance the propulsions not to need stuff like that, but then he disappeared.

[Avestron]

I can very probably work out a more accurate system... at least from a logical standpoint...

Variables:

- Propulsion (traction threshold, torque, propulsion max speed, propulsion energy drain, propulsion weight, propulsion aerodynamic coefficient, propulsion friction coefficient, Brake coefficient)

- Turret (turret energy drain, turret weight, turret aerodynamic coefficient, turret recoil, round power)

- Body (engine power, (body energy drain), body weight, body aerodynamic coefficient)

- Unit circumstances (unit velocity, front terrain incline, lateral terrain incline, Direction change, Arch size, terrain friction coefficient)

- - - - - - -

Under Fire
=========

Positional recoil-induced movement may be estimated on the basis of

((enemy round power / (Total Unit Weight)) - traction threshold)

Weapons with low power will not have effect on units with sufficient traction and weight to nullify impact recoil.

- - - - - - -

Movement - Bearings, Velocity and Direction
======================================

I am thinking that it would be best to tackle movement as a vector value. In other words movement 'x' and movement 'y' are constrained by a variety of factors determining unit velocity.

As such... 'movement x' and 'movement y' are derived from the variables 'unit velocity' and 'unit bearing'

Unit bearing is converted into an x to y ratio:

Bearing Values

000-090 = +x versus +y
090-180 = -x versus +y
180-270 = -x versus -y
270-360 = +x versus -y

-

Acceleration
==========

Raw acceleration is determined by:

(Engine Power / Total Weight) - AKA the power to weight ratio.


Factors to consider also are:

(1 + ('Slope gradient' - 'surface friction coefficient')) = Terrain coefficient modifier

(Total aerodynamic coefficient)

Direction change (a function of present bearing & previous bearing)

- - -

Max acceleration = The lesser of

('Power Weight Ratio' x 'Terrain coeficient' x direction change coefficient) (not applicable to VTOLs)

OR

('PWR' x Total aerodynamic coefficient x direction change coefficient)

- - -

Torque improves low-velocity performance. Traction improves power transfer to a surface - providing a threshold of efficient acceleration and a threshold of less-efficiently applied acceleration beyond the traction limit of the propulsion.

....


..........

Eh... I'll need to think further on this - in the meantime feel free to point out errors, missing info, etc. Heck feel free to take a stab at the problem ^_^

[Zarel]

NO.

You are not changing the system.

The formula stays the same:

basespeed = propmult*engine*bodysizemodifier/totalweight, capped at propmaxspeed

speed = basespeed*expmult

Except for the removal of bodysizemodifier (which is redundant with engine, anyway). What you are doing is making the individual numbers more accurate.

[Per]

Concerning the topic, I played a long test game yesterday with a friend to see how good AA was, and what possibilities there were for getting through a very tough turtle defense.

Results:

• I am not sure there is a whole lot wrong with AA. The mg AA is quite weak late in the game, but that is to be expected since SAMs and Stormbringer should replace them.
• There is no way to use land droids to break through a serious turtle defense. Tracks are way too slow. Lack of formation driving and/or narrow terrain makes it near impossible to avoid the droids getting into a "death queue". Layers of upgraded walls will delay them sufficiently to avoid any breaches.
• The theory previously bandied about concerning hover droids being able to dodge artillery is totally false. Especially ridiculous was the idea that a hover with artillery turret could somehow be moved out of CB harm's way - whoever suggested that could not possibly ever have tested it - it is way too heavy to move anywhere fast.
• Transporters are awesome - as attackers. Their mg is much too powerful, given that it is supposed to be a transporter, not an attack vessel. Attempting to land cyborgs into a turtler's base was almost impossible, though. The moment they land, they get obliterated by artillery fire. It also takes far too much micromanagement currently to offload the contents of several cyborg transports. However, if the latter could be fixed, the former has its own interesting solution - the splash damage from the artillery will destroy not only your cheap cyborgs, but also his own base in an instant.
• Thermite and plasmite bombs are the only truly effective weapons against a serious, high-tech turtler. They are probably way too effective. However, I am not sure I would nerf them before other options are available. They are after all at the end of an otherwise unpopular tech tree.

Suggestions? Just some things from the top of my head. One idea I had was to utilize the currently useless side-specific armour rating. Right now, each side on a droid may be assigned a different armour rating. We could use this to give tracks super-armour on the front and top to make it better against static targets. Better formation driving would help. Better dropoff UI for transports would help. Some way to tell droids to keep some distance between each other to avoid splash damage would help.

PS Does Stormbringer really do only 25% damage to VTOLs? The guide would seem to indicate this, as laser is thermal.

[Avestron]

NO.

You are not changing the system.

The formula stays the same:

...

Except for the removal of bodysizemodifier (which is redundant with engine, anyway). What you are doing is making the individual numbers more accurate.

Very well. This falls in the category of 'nothing to be fixed and hence nothing to modify'. One thing that I personally like about what I was implying is that a propulsion with high traction can have a lot of transference of energy at low-to-mid velocities and therefore fast acceleration. A tracked propulsion with a lot of engine power would get off to a faster start than a hover but would quickly reach its max speed. A hovercraft would need time to get up to speed since energy transfer is less direct (low traction).

Plus it would have been funny watching hovertanks careening out of control whenever they fire (think Sgt Bilko). ;c)

[Zarel]

I am not sure there is a whole lot wrong with AA. The mg AA is quite weak late in the game, but that is to be expected since SAMs and Stormbringer should replace them.

Well, you still have to use MG AA's in the midgame, so they should probably receive at least a slight boost. Enough to counteract the reduction of their multiplier from 100% -> 80%, at least.

There is no way to use land droids to break through a serious turtle defense. Tracks are way too slow. Lack of formation driving and/or narrow terrain makes it near impossible to avoid the droids getting into a "death queue". Layers of upgraded walls will delay them sufficiently to avoid any breaches.

The theory previously bandied about concerning hover droids being able to dodge artillery is totally false. Especially ridiculous was the idea that a hover with artillery turret could somehow be moved out of CB harm's way - whoever suggested that could not possibly ever have tested it - it is way too heavy to move anywhere fast.

It appears I'm going to have to have another balance thread regarding this, then.

Transporters are awesome - as attackers. Their mg is much too powerful, given that it is supposed to be a transporter, not an attack vessel. Attempting to land cyborgs into a turtler's base was almost impossible, though. The moment they land, they get obliterated by artillery fire. It also takes far too much micromanagement currently to offload the contents of several cyborg transports. However, if the latter could be fixed, the former has its own interesting solution - the splash damage from the artillery will destroy not only your cheap cyborgs, but also his own base in an instant.

We do need a quick "unload all" button. We also need to make it so transports are always in the air. That would fix most of the problems.

(I'm already fixing the strong MG issue.)

Thermite and plasmite bombs are the only truly effective weapons against a serious, high-tech turtler. They are probably way too effective. However, I am not sure I would nerf them before other options are available. They are after all at the end of an otherwise unpopular tech tree.

Slowing down the bombers should do it. I need to do that regardless. I'll give them more HP if it reduces their usefulness too much.

Suggestions? Just some things from the top of my head. One idea I had was to utilize the currently useless side-specific armour rating. Right now, each side on a droid may be assigned a different armour rating. We could use this to give tracks super-armour on the front and top to make it better against static targets. Better formation driving would help. Better dropoff UI for transports would help. Some way to tell droids to keep some distance between each other to avoid splash damage would help.

Hint: Side-specific armor is for bodies, not propulsions.

PS Does Stormbringer really do only 25% damage to VTOLs? The guide would seem to indicate this, as laser is thermal.

Lasers' type is AP. That means it gets the AP multiplier of 60%. "Flamer" multipliers apply to weapons with the "flamer" type (flamer, inferno, plasmite flamer, flamer borg, thermite flamer borg), not to weapons with the "thermal" class.

[psychopompos]

Suggestions? Just some things from the top of my head. One idea I had was to utilize the currently useless side-specific armour rating. Right now, each side on a droid may be assigned a different armour rating. We could use this to give tracks super-armour on the front and top to make it better against static targets.

i always figured the tiger looked perfect as some kind of siege tank.
even the texture makes it look as if covered in ablative armour scales/plates.

Better formation driving would help. Better dropoff UI for transports would help. Some way to tell droids to keep some distance between each other to avoid splash damage would help.

like aggressive/balanced/evasive behaviors?

like

We do need a quick "unload all" button. We also need to make it so transports are always in the air. That would fix most of the problems.

a 'combat drop' command similar to used by c&c generals Chinooks be a good idea?

One thing that I personally like about what I was implying is that a propulsion with high traction can have a lot of transference of energy at low-to-mid velocities and therefore fast acceleration. A tracked propulsion with a lot of engine power would get off to a faster start than a hover but would quickly reach its max speed. A hovercraft would need time to get up to speed since energy transfer is less direct (low traction).

Plus it would have been funny watching hovertanks careening out of control whenever they fire (think Sgt Bilko). ;c)

heh heh heh.
i would have loved to have seen that.