Anti-Air testing

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Zarel
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Zarel »

lav_coyote25 wrote: homing bullets??? i can understand the sams being such... but bullets and lasers ?
Lasers have been homing for ages. Have you ever heard of someone dodging a laser after it's been fired?

And the bullets are something I had to do because the projectile system would give an extremely unfair disadvantage to them if they weren't.
-Kosh-
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by -Kosh- »

Zarel wrote:AA weapons are all homing, because of the new projectile code.

(Can you tell that I dislike the new projectile code? :P )
You do know there is a handy way to fix this?
Revert it.

What was the problem with the old projectile code and seeing as the changes look to be around 3000 revisions back, nobody has noticed before? O_o
Looks like this project does not have a testing suite that can pick up on sh*t like this?
This is a waste of space. Something important should be here.
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lav_coyote25
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by lav_coyote25 »

Looks like this project does not have a testing suite that can pick up on sh*t like this?
yep! you got it right there - testing suite? none! testing personel - all of us... xD
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Zarel
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Zarel »

-Kosh- wrote: You do know there is a handy way to fix this?
Revert it.

What was the problem with the old projectile code and seeing as the changes look to be around 3000 revisions back, nobody has noticed before? O_o
Looks like this project does not have a testing suite that can pick up on sh*t like this?
The problem is that everyone else likes the new projectile code. I'm like the sole dissenter. Well, apparently now you are too, but still.
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Kacen »

Mabsterone wrote:AA does not shoot on landed air vehicles...why ? Troop transports shoot while landed, if you dont have any groundfiring defence there you are plain dead. Just park your troop transport in the AA mplacments and wait till they are gone.
You know one could use the same logic to say all AA should be able to shoot ground targets.

But that would be unbalanced apparently, though it remains illogical, unless (I don't know if this is already the case), VTOLs have a unique armor type and AA has a unique attack bonus type that specifically effects that.

If so then I think allowing AA to attack ground units (ONLY if they were coded to prioritize aircraft and only shoot ground when there's no enemy aircraft present) would be fine. If not then doing that I don't think could cause any harm.

I'd think if AA were able to attack ground units they'd have the same effectiveness against ground targets as machine guns/non-Stormbringer Lasers do against aircraft or AP weapons have when attacking tracked units to be fair and balanced. Not that it would still be realistic, but then again neither is tank cannons not shattering cyborgs in a single shot but you need to balance realism and balance.

Also on top of that is it just me or does the cyborg transport only sometimes shoot when it's landed? It seems a bit inconsistent.
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Kacen »

Mabsterone wrote:Confirmed bug: Troop transports dont die while flying and AA is firing upon them, there need to be AA cappable units/emplacments like assault guns around to get them the final blow.
This seems to only happen with Stormbringers and SAMs for me, Whirlwinds hit cyborg transports if I recall...

Very strange, as I cannot see how there could be a glitch like that unless it was purposely done.
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by themousemaster »

erm..

Are these homing bullets only in Skrim/MP? Cause I've been watching AA bullets for a while in SP now, they aren't homing for squat ;p.

Luckily, most of my guide is still applicable if they were to START homing... just a few stages will end up being much easier ;p
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Zarel
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Zarel »

themousemaster wrote:erm..

Are these homing bullets only in Skrim/MP? Cause I've been watching AA bullets for a while in SP now, they aren't homing for squat ;p.

Luckily, most of my guide is still applicable if they were to START homing... just a few stages will end up being much easier ;p
Yeah, they're skirm/MP only. We're planning on eventually adding the new balance to campaign, but we haven't done so yet.
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Kacen »

Honestly I don't like the homing aspect...

It detracts from the realism, especially when it comes to unit experience. This game had the most realistic leveling up of units that I've ever seen, where their accuracy got better over time.
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psychopompos
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by psychopompos »

Kacen wrote:Honestly I don't like the homing aspect...

It detracts from the realism, especially when it comes to unit experience. This game had the most realistic leveling up of units that I've ever seen, where their accuracy got better over time.
at least it aint a dice game :stare:
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Haku »

Regarding the video try a mixed array of AA like Stormbringers x40 w/20 ish Vindicators since they are on the same tech level or close to. Chances are people wont stock up on 1 single AA defensive weapon and a well placed array of Vindicators w/Cyclones or Stormbringers gets the job done. If people have access to Stormbringer chances are they also have pulse laser defences setup around the base to stack in additional damage plus missile fortresses which do excellent damage.

Zarel wrote:And the problem is, the way current VTOLs are balanced, nearly all VTOLs go at this speed of 700-base. The light VTOL Mini-Rocket Bug goes at 700-base, and the VTOL Plasmite Bomb Retribution also goes at 700-base. There's no reason why a heavy bomber should be the same speed as a light fighter (especially since bombers have more HP under the assumption that they're slower and easier to hit), which is why I'm trying to slow down the latter.
Sounds pretty well balanced. The Bug VTOL can barely carry anything far as payload goes w/o becomming a huge slow moving bullseye to AA guns of any tier especially when equiped w/something heavy like Plasmite or Heap (if it could even take off from the ground w/those weapons :stare: :...: ). Its cheap in cost, low research pre-reqs, fast build times, and its a light body w/a weak engine. The Retribution cost a lot more, has a very high research pre-req, longer build time, and a much more powerful engine allowing it to carry pretty much anything w/o slowing down. If anything the Vengeance should be faster then Retribution iirc because it has a more powerful engine and isn't all that much heavier in overall weight.


If VTOL is a problem why not make an elite AA defensive structure similar to a fortress? Maybe a Rail Gun AA Fortress w/a low to medium RoF, extremly heavy damage, a range of 10~12 minimum / 38~45 max, high build time, high research pre-req and cost to balance it but make it a special structure w/a limit as to how many can be built. Another balance to it would be requiring an Advanced Power Generator next to it to allow it to fire but make it seperate from other generators used for oil derricks similar to the building requirement to fire the satilite laser. Not supporting the idea of power generators allowing base defences to fire but given the current railguns they require a massive amount of juice it would be along the lines of realism. RL railguns are being designed to shoot down high speed missles. Among other targets im sure w/computer guidance they could land hits on aircraft given they have a range of 250 nautical miles (287.694 Miles on land) and if 1 round connects that bird is beyond smoked :twisted: .


On a sidenote why isn't the VTOL version of a Bunkerbuster a bomb instead of a rocket? With just one it would be able to destroy practically anything it hit given the latest RL BB will be a 30,000 pound bomb ;)
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Zarel
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Zarel »

Haku wrote:Sounds pretty well balanced. The Bug VTOL can barely carry anything far as payload goes w/o becomming a huge slow moving bullseye to AA guns of any tier especially when equiped w/something heavy like Plasmite or Heap (if it could even take off from the ground w/those weapons :stare: :...: ). Its cheap in cost, low research pre-reqs, fast build times, and its a light body w/a weak engine. The Retribution cost a lot more, has a very high research pre-req, longer build time, and a much more powerful engine allowing it to carry pretty much anything w/o slowing down. If anything the Vengeance should be faster then Retribution iirc because it has a more powerful engine and isn't all that much heavier in overall weight.
Please read my post:

"There's no reason why a heavy bomber should be the same speed as a light fighter (especially since bombers have more HP under the assumption that they're slower and easier to hit), which is why I'm trying to slow down the latter."

(Emphasis added)
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by winsrp »

homing bullets... hmmm

not even lasers should be homing.. they just have a super high speed. And they are not lasers lasers, they are laser beams, if you increase the fire rate of these you should see a really funny effect.

Missiles are ok, tracking systems and all that, they could even dodge hills and mountains and all that for what I care, but bullets... I mean come on... make researches to increase bullet speed, don't make them homing it's just stupid, now even grenadiers will be homing... can you imagine that... why don't you make a homing cannon fortress and finish to screw up the game..
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Per »

Zarel wrote:The problem is that everyone else likes the new projectile code. I'm like the sole dissenter.
No, you are not alone. It is one of those changes in the name of "realism" that shoot you in the foot quite bit later when the full implications hit home.

By the way, we should port over the homing AA fix to campaign for the next release, not wait for a full port of rebalance, which may take a long while.
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Re: Anti-Air testing

Post by Zarel »

winsrp wrote:not even lasers should be homing.. they just have a super high speed. And they are not lasers lasers, they are laser beams, if you increase the fire rate of these you should see a really funny effect.
Okay. I'll aim a laser at you, and then after I fire it, you try to dodge it. Please tell me how that works out for you.

Warzone lasers are true lasers. Remember, this is Warzone. Pretty much all Warzone weapons are realistic.

Furthermore, "laser beams" are true lasers. Go look up "beam" in the dictionary - all the definitions that involve movement involve movement at the speed of light. Once you have dodged a beam aimed at you moving at the speed of light, I shall remove "homing" from the laser projectile.

The laser is only a projectile because of stupid projectile code. Sooner or later, they'll be actual beams, and we won't be having this discussion.
Per wrote:By the way, we should port over the homing AA fix to campaign for the next release, not wait for a full port of rebalance, which may take a long while.
I shall do that the instant I am able to compile Warzone in Snow Leopard.