Rebalance ideas (open to constructive criticism)

[Arreon]

I've been playing this game for a while now, and while I'm pleased with the work that you guys have put in to making it better, I still think there are some areas that need some tweaking. Here's a list of some improvements that could be made:

1: Increase the range of the Angel Missile (somewhere between the range it is now and the mortar range).
2: Tweak the Gauss Cannon so it can compete with the Scourge missile (the Scourge does more damage than the Gauss Cannon).
3: Make the Rail Gun so players aren't tempted to immediately stick to the Gauss Cannon and forget the Rail Gun.
4: Remove the splash damage from the Plasma Cannon (that way, it doesn't blow up nearby structures as well as the enemy unit). Keep the short range though.
5: Increase the Body Points and/or armor of the HPV Hardpoints and Emplacements.
6: Decrease the weight of the Heavy Laser (it doesn't make sense for the Pulse Laser to weigh that many times less than the heavy laser, when the heavy laser doesn't look a lot bigger to begin with).
7: Increase the damage of the Pepperpot (so it's not useless).
8: Decrease the cost of researching the Twin Assault Gun Hardpoint.
9: Tweak the early AA defenses so that they can actually stop an air raid (Hurricane, Cyclone, and Whirlwind).
10: Create more defensive structure variety (how about bringing back the Pulse Laser Emplacement, and put in Assault Cannon Emplacements, HPV Guard Towers, and HMG and Assault Gun Guard Towers?).

My ideas can be improved if you have any suggestions. I might add more ideas later.

[Zarel]

1: Increase the range of the Angel Missile (somewhere between the range it is now and the mortar range).

Already done - these were the balance changes I was talking about in your other thread.

2: Tweak the Gauss Cannon so it can compete with the Scourge missile (the Scourge does more damage than the Gauss Cannon).

Gauss Cannon does more damage than Scourge missile against pretty much anything except tanks and bunkers. In addition, Gauss Cannon has 600 HP, but Scourge Missile has only 20. In a battle between Scourge and Gauss, Gauss usually wins.

3: Make the Rail Gun so players aren't tempted to immediately stick to the Gauss Cannon and forget the Rail Gun.

Why? Rail Gun is pretty useless the minute you get Gauss Cannon, and there's nothing wrong with that since there's a pretty long time after you get Rail Gun but before you get Gauss Cannon.

4: Remove the splash damage from the Plasma Cannon (that way, it doesn't blow up nearby structures as well as the enemy unit). Keep the short range though.

Why? Plasma cannon doesn't need to be any weaker. No one uses it anyway. -_- Low HP, low range, heavy/slow... It might have the highest damage rate in the game, but those three things are enough so that it never gets used.

5: Increase the Body Points and/or armor of the HPV Hardpoints and Emplacements.

...why should HPV be an exception? Every other hardpoint has exactly the same HP/armor. Every other emplacement has exactly the same HP/armor. HPV's advantage is that it's a neutral weapon - it's not strong in every area, but it's not weak in every area, either.

6: Decrease the weight of the Heavy Laser (it doesn't make sense for the Pulse Laser to weigh that many times less than the heavy laser, when the heavy laser doesn't look a lot bigger to begin with).

It's a balance reason. Heavy laser does nearly twice as much damage as pulse laser, and fires about as fast.

7: Increase the damage of the Pepperpot (so it's not useless).

It's useful enough already. If anything, I should decrease the damage of mortar/bombard.

8: Decrease the cost of researching the Twin Assault Gun Hardpoint.

Oh, man, I missed this one. Yeah, I'll decrease its cost.

9: Tweak the early AA defenses so that they can actually stop an air raid (Hurricane, Cyclone, and Whirlwind).

They can't? I'll look into it.

10: Create more defensive structure variety (how about bringing back the Pulse Laser Emplacement, and put in Assault Cannon Emplacements, HPV Guard Towers, and HMG and Assault Gun Guard Towers?).

Erm, there's a new Lancer Tower, Pulse Laser Tower, and Pulse Laser Hardpoint. What more do you want? There are Assault Cannon Bunkers, which are like Emplacements, except they can actually survive attacks. HPV tower is a good idea, though. Ditto AG tower. HMG tower isn't going to happen - there's already MG tower that has an HMG on it - put it behind a wall if you think it's too weak.

[Per]

I agree that something has to be done to the Angel missile. Whenever I build one, I keep thinking, "this must be a bug, it is not firing"...

[Zarel]

I agree that something has to be done to the Angel missile. Whenever I build one, I keep thinking, "this must be a bug, it is not firing"...

Meh. What about if I rename the thing? Suggestions?

Short-Range Missile Artillery!

Just "Missile Artillery"?

Meh, I like the name Angel Missile. You'll get used to it being short-range soon enough.

Anyway, vote! Should its range be 12 or 14?

14 would give it the ability to outrange everything except stuff under the jurisdiction of sensor towers. 12 would let it get hit by most longrange T3 structures: Rail, Gauss, Scourge, Flashlight, Pulse, and all artillery.

[Avestron]

Meh, I like the name Angel Missile. You'll get used to it being short-range soon enough.

Anyway, vote! Should its range be 12 or 14?

14 would give it the ability to outrange everything except stuff under the jurisdiction of sensor towers. 12 would let it get hit by most longrange T3 structures: Rail, Gauss, Scourge, Flashlight, Pulse, and all artillery.

Perhaps the Angel missile needs a slightly different specialization - micro missile artillary?

HP DPS . . . ROF Accuracy Range
50 70s (--.-) 31.4 60- 80% 3– 8.5

Indirect fire weapon - relatively precise weapon - Versatile - basically a weapon that is designed to supercede the mini rocket artillary - incorporating rapid firing missile rack technologies. The idea is a weapon that inflicts significant hurt over short-to-medium range - including, to a degree, airborne units. It is not meant to outrange weapons but is meant as a tactically complimentary unit

[Arreon]

Anyway, vote! Should its range be 12 or 14?

I think it should be 12. We don't want to give the Angel missiles an unfair advantage in the game if it can outreach most of the other T3 weapons. Plus, it's an indirect fire weapon, and being small, you can hide it anywhere, and surprise other players.

12 is still better than 8.5, though.

[Zarel]

Perhaps the Angel missile needs a slightly different specialization - micro missile artillary?

HP DPS . . . ROF Accuracy Range
50 70s (--.-) 31.4 60- 80% 3– 8.5

Indirect fire weapon - relatively precise weapon - Versatile - basically a weapon that is designed to supercede the mini rocket artillary - incorporating rapid firing missile rack technologies. The idea is a weapon that inflicts significant hurt over short-to-medium range - including, to a degree, airborne units. It is not meant to outrange weapons but is meant as a tactically complimentary unit

Erm, the current Angel Missile is already designed to supersede the Mini-Rocket Artillery. Your Angel Missile is just a weakened version of the MRL. And indirect-fire weapons can't be versatile.

I think it should be 12. We don't want to give the Angel missiles an unfair advantage in the game if it can outreach most of the other T3 weapons. Plus, it's an indirect fire weapon, and being small, you can hide it anywhere, and surprise other players.

12 is still better than 8.5, though.

Well, it wouldn't be able to outrange towers (Pulse, Scourge, Needle) at range 14.

Range 14 isn't very far at all (it's what Gauss Cannon has), and a 14-tile radius isn't big enough to hide it, especially since you can follow the missiles back to the firer (I mean, the weakest sensor tower has range 24 by endgame and it doesn't shoot anything - that gets annoying)

I mean, Angel Missile currently just strikes me as a Rail Gun, except with no HP, and does very little damage to Tracks and Hover. Then again, you do get it a bit earlier, but not that much.

[zydonk]

It's useful enough already. If anything, I should decrease the damage of mortar/bombard.

They are OK, Zarel. I suggest shortening the range of the ppot and adjusting its damage to that of mortar (the advantage of the pot is the rof). The bombard is the big boy: long range, big hit, slow rof. The mortar is mean at first, then a cowpatter(?) (to encourage research).

There is an overlap of late mortars and early arty, just as the game begins to shift from defence to attack.

As for Angel, it's caught between Ripple and A'angel (Just checked, is the range of the Angel that short?) and serves only as a stepping stone in research. Compare Tank Killer.

Early AA is fine too, except that researching W'wind is a bit arcane and I never seem to get it. Rule is: lots of VTOLs, lots of AA (set then along the lines of attack, not across them).

[Avestron]

Erm, the current Angel Missile is already designed to supersede the Mini-Rocket Artillery. Your Angel Missile is just a weakened version of the MRL. And indirect-fire weapons can't be versatile.

Just pitching in at a tangent :c) I was thinking in terms of a unit that launches a battery of micro missiles that reach an apex and home in upon a target below (or above if versatile). Although I was aiming for a weapon that shares characteristics of both the mini rocket artillary turret and direct homing missiles - with an aim at strengthened stats overall compared to the MRL - 2.3 x the damage, significantly better accuracy, particularly at "long range" (to replicate the homing nature of the missiles) - Made it as short range as the MRL to help balance the versatile aspect (as I somehow felt that ANGEL refered to some defensive tactical capability). In light of the non-versatile nature though, it would need 4 - 9.5 or 5 - 11 range to measure up.

A further possibility is high fire rate (micro missiles) and low damage (30s) - might be interesting

Still I understand that the ANGEL missile has its niche - though the level of disparity between it and ARCHANGEL is rather great (similar to MRL to Ripple).

Anyway - just thoughts.

[whippersnapper]

.

I have found that theoretical discussions-brainstorming can only take you so far and that the ultimate answers to changes are in making a mod and testing it relentlessly in MP and SKI modes. Very often there are results that could not be predicted by pure discourse alone. Pure discourse can be helpful in not wasting time implementing obvious cul de sacs but beyond that you have to roll-up your sleeves for definitive answers. Anyway, that's my 2 cents from a practiced perspective. O_O

Regards, whip

[Arreon]

.

I have found that theoretical discussions-brainstorming can only take you so far and that the ultimate answers to changes are in making a mod and testing it relentlessly in MP and SKI modes. Very often there are results that could not be predicted by pure discourse alone. Pure discourse can be helpful in not wasting time implementing obvious cul de sacs but beyond that you have to roll-up your sleeves for definitive answers. Anyway, that's my 2 cents from a practiced perspective. O_O

Regards, whip

Did you say that if you want to test new weapon changes, you make a mod and test it?

If so, then I've got one thing to say:

Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library

Runtime Error!

Program: C:\Program Files\Warzone2100\warzone2100.exe

This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way.
Please contact the application's support team for more information.

[Zarel]

They are OK, Zarel. I suggest shortening the range of the ppot and adjusting its damage to that of mortar (the advantage of the pot is the rof). The bombard is the big boy: long range, big hit, slow rof. The mortar is mean at first, then a cowpatter(?) (to encourage research).

I'm still getting reports that mortars/bombards are overpowered, though. And since they're still higher damage than they were in 1.10, it may be a legitimate objection.

As for Angel, it's caught between Ripple and A'angel (Just checked, is the range of the Angel that short?) and serves only as a stepping stone in research. Compare Tank Killer.

Still I understand that the ANGEL missile has its niche - though the level of disparity between it and ARCHANGEL is rather great (similar to MRL to Ripple)

What both of you are missing are some very important facts. Angel used to be a stepping-stone between Ripple and Archie. It no longer is.

MRL upgrades to Angel Missile. They are light, high damage, short range.
Ripple Rockets upgrades to Archangel Missile. They are heavy, medium damage, very long range.
They are not the same weapon, they are not intended to be used for the same purpose.

Please, please, before you say anything more, look at the CURRENT STATS of them: http://guide.wz2100.net/w/#rocket

(In particular, note their range and DPS.)

Just pitching in at a tangent :c) I was thinking in terms of a unit that launches a battery of micro missiles that reach an apex and home in upon a target below (or above if versatile).

Current projectile system does not allow this.

Although I was aiming for a weapon that shares characteristics of both the mini rocket artillary turret and direct homing missiles - with an aim at strengthened stats overall compared to the MRL - 2.3 x the damage, significantly better accuracy, particularly at "long range" (to replicate the homing nature of the missiles) - Made it as short range as the MRL to help balance the versatile aspect (as I somehow felt that ANGEL refered to some defensive tactical capability). In light of the non-versatile nature though, it would need 4 - 9.5 or 5 - 11 range to measure up.

I'm sorry, but, again, what you are suggesting is just a weakened version of the current Angel Missile. Seriously, have you even looked at the current Angel Missile stats, or tried to use it in multiplayer?

A further possibility is high fire rate (micro missiles) and low damage (30s) - might be interesting

This could be an interesting idea.

I have found that theoretical discussions-brainstorming can only take you so far and that the ultimate answers to changes are in making a mod and testing it relentlessly in MP and SKI modes. Very often there are results that could not be predicted by pure discourse alone. Pure discourse can be helpful in not wasting time implementing obvious cul de sacs but beyond that you have to roll-up your sleeves for definitive answers. Anyway, that's my 2 cents from a practiced perspective. O_O

My original Rebalance Mod was popular because:
1. It fixed many balance issues that made 2.1 virtually unplayable.
2. It was easy to install.

A new mod would have only questionably better balance, and would be much harder to install due to the lack of a good mod loader (which I am working on fixing; don't worry).

Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library

Runtime Error!

Program: C:\Program Files\Warzone2100\warzone2100.exe

This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way.
Please contact the application's support team for more information.

Look in stderr.txt - it will have an error message telling you exactly what's wrong with your mod.

[whippersnapper]

Did you say that if you want to test new weapon changes, you make a mod and test it?

If so, then I've got one thing to say:

Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library

Runtime Error!

Program: C:\Program Files\Warzone2100\warzone2100.exe

This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way.
Please contact the application's support team for more information.

I hear ya. I've dealt with that more than once and always something different. Once it was because I had to update the runtime package. Another time it was because my directory structure was whack in 32EW.... and yet another time it was because the file name given to a .wz had too many characters... and even more i can't recall right now. But all a PITA that drove me batty at first. In the end it comes with the territory of learning though when your dealing with it trying to get something done it's extremely frustrating to have to troubleshoot the unforeseen and very tempting to throw in the towel because it plain is not fun to deal with and truth be told we get into this for the fun of it and not to be driven to distraction with problems that seem incomprehensible at first blush. (Boy was that ever a "run-on" sentence... sorry 'bout that.)

Zarel wrote:
Look in stderr.txt - it will have an error message telling you exactly what's wrong with your mod.

Indeed, that can be very helpful - pointing you in the right direction. With that 32EW prob I had some years back (when I switched from 16EW) there was some trial and error involved as well to get it just right in the end.... but 32EW is known for it's flaky and incomplete state..... Though I've grown to love using it for all its warts.


Regards, whip
.

[Avestron]

What both of you are missing are some very important facts. Angel used to be a stepping-stone between Ripple and Archie. It no longer is.

Is the graphical tech tree out of date in this regard?

MRL upgrades to Angel Missile. They are light, high damage, short range.
Ripple Rockets upgrades to Archangel Missile. They are heavy, medium damage, very long range.
They are not the same weapon, they are not intended to be used for the same purpose.

Please, please, before you say anything more, look at the CURRENT STATS of them: http://guide.wz2100.net/w/#rocket

(In particular, note their range and DPS.)

Actually I was taking the guide into consideration. It has certainly not been my intention to cause distress with my comments.

Current projectile system does not allow this.

OK that explains its absence then.

I'm sorry, but, again, what you are suggesting is just a weakened version of the current Angel Missile. Seriously, have you even looked at the current Angel Missile stats, or tried to use it in multiplayer?

Yes I have looked at the stats and no, I have yet to let a game run long enough for Angel missile to be tried appropriately.

This could be an interesting idea.

ok.

[Zarel]

Is the graphical tech tree out of date in this regard?

No, I mean, in terms of stats, Angel Missile used to be a slightly more powerful Ripple Rockets that no one used since they were all waiting for Archie, and it no longer is..

You still have to research Angel Missile to get Archie.

Actually I was taking the guide into consideration. It has certainly not been my intention to cause distress with my comments.

Hmm, strange; I may have misinterpreted something. But then why would you suggest to change the new Angel Missile to be weaker than the old Angel Missile in every way?