Re-tooling Air Defense

Discuss the future of Warzone 2100 with us.
Luke
Greenhorn
Posts: 13
Joined: 23 Sep 2007, 05:51

Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by Luke »

We have 3 different lines of research by which means a player can develop air defense. Apology in advance: This is a lengthy read.

1. AAA, through the MG/cannon lines
2. SAMs, somewhere very late in the rocket/missile line
3. Stormbringer, in the laser line (in itself a T3, late game research line)

First, I'll address the AAA (yes, there's a third A, as AAA is what we call it in my profession). We have the Hurricane, Cyclone, and Whirlwind turrets. In my opinion, they are not different enough from each other. Let's put aside for now the deficiency of AAA resulting from the recent projectile code rewrite, as I believe this will be fixed programatically fairly soon.

In RL (again, I acknowledge the danger comparing WZ to real life, but this is applicable as it has gameplay perspective) there are 3 basic ways to fire AAA: Aimed, Curtain, and Barrage fire. Curtain fire is what it sounds like - throwing into the air a stream or "firehose" of rounds from a high cyclic rate of fire weapon, in the hope that the target aircraft will fly through it. Most curtain-fire systems are light AAA (up to 30mm) and of course - small arms. Next, Barrage fire is employed by the medium and higher calibers of slower-firing flak-type AAA, usually fired in bursts of 3-5 rounds with intermittent reloading periods. These weapons generate large explosions at various altitudes over a wide area, again, in the hope that aircraft flying through will sustain shock or shrapnel damage. Finally, aimed fire is the most difficult to implement, as the gunner must calculate a lead-computed firing solution based on the (optimally non-maneuvering) target's altitude, range, and velocity, then fire off 1 or 2 expensive rounds at it and hope the target doesn't jink or maneuver before the rounds get there. Aimed fire is most effective when it's radar-directed, but there are many techniques, including various typed of optical sights. It is nearly always used with the higher calibers (57, 81, 100mm AAA) due to the low rate of fire - though aimed fire systems exist for all sizes of AAA.

The three AAA systems in Warzone use a sort of mashed-up combination of all three types of fire - with the Cyclone turret leaning toward Barrage fire due to its effect. But as a trend, all of the weapons pretty much behave the same way. Here is my suggestion on how to re-tool them to make them more different from each other, and yet more specialized with the simulation of different types of fires. It may also make AAA a little more effective without having to build 50 emplacements in my base just to kill one enemy VTOL :) Now, because air units in Warzone are non-maneuvering (i.e. they don't jink to avoid threats on their ingress/egress... they simply fly blackline from their arming pad, to the target, and back) we should be able to simulate these different firing tactics fairly easily.

1. Hurricane turret. As the most primitive AAA system in the game (other than small arms), this should be the pure curtain-fire weapon. It already has a high rate of fire; just have it lead the target VTOLs a little more and don't self-destruct the rounds until they get a bit higher (Warzone AAA tends to miss short/low, for some reason). Allow its ROF and damage upgrades to continue making it a viable weapon that doesn't get obsoleted by Whirlwind, and always a strong defense against fast, light bodied VTOLs. Keep the various small arms (MGs) able to fire at VTOLs - if anything, increase their effectiveness a tiny bit.

2. Cyclone flak turret. Make this a true barrage weapon. Give it a rapid-firing 4-6 round clip, with medium duration reload (long enough that it will only get off 1 volley at a passing medium-speed VTOL), then decrease its accuracy wildly, while enormously increasing its splash radius and damage amount. This way, you can build true "Flak traps", more effective against medium-speed medium-body VTOLs, less effective against the fast ones because they fly out of the barrage zone quicker.

So far, the first two suggestions sound like "just specialize those two turrets to the extreme of what they already are." True indeed. The next proposition is a little more radical.

3. Whirlwind turret. Right now, behaves just like a "Hurricane 2.0" kind of weapon and does the same thing as Hurricane, only better. My recommendation: Re-tool this to be a heavy-caliber aimed AAA with extremely high damage, long range, and very long (howitzer-like) reload time. Give it only 1 or 2 shots, but enough bang to wipe out a light VTOL (though it could never hope to hit something that fast) or handily put a serious dent in a heavy bomber. Combine it with the air-defense radar I suggest in another thread, make it an indirect fire anti-air weapon, and you can now effectively shoot nonmaneuvering (i.e. straight-line-flying) VTOLs 2 screens away (this is NOT unrealistic). Expensive, slow to build/produce, but a viable threat even in T3.

These suggestions specialize the three AAA systems in a way that would keep all of them distinctly useful against all different types of VTOLs throughout the game. More importantly, it would allow AAA to remain a viable alternative to SAMs: because the two technologies are along vastly different research lines, it would allow a AAA player to be competitive while his opponent may specialize in missiles and SAMs.

Ok, on to the next half of this suggestion. Thanks for reading this far.

SAMs. We have two. Three if you count the MANPADS-like capability of cyborg rockets/missiles (which I think should be made more effective: If a rocket cyborg lands a hit on a VTOL, it should cause a good bit of damage).

Avenger SAM. And Vindicator SAM, which is literally just double Avenger - otherwise, the missiles are the same, they do almost the same damage, fly the same speed, except you get four of them instead of two. This is kind of lame, in my opinion; it doesn't really introduce a new weapon, just give you a twin version of an old one. First I'll address one common thing - these missiles are too slow. Real-life (there it is again) SAMs fly half an order of magnitude faster than aircraft - so everytime I see a Warzone SAM chase a VTOL all the way across the map and end up hitting it at the rearming pad, I chuckle. They should fly roughly 2x as fast as the fastest VTOL - or perhaps as fast as the Lancer/TK/Scourge weapons. This will by itself also eliminate the second problem of infinite range; short-range tactical SAMs have a relatively short boost stage with minimal or no sustain, burning out rather quickly. If one did try to chase an aircraft halfway back to base, it would eventually lose energy and fall out of the sky.

Here's my suggestion for re-tooling the SAMs.

1. Give Avenger 4 shots (i.e. turn it into Vindicator), but otherwise leave it as-is. This will be our short-range, point defense, tactical SAM system, which will be the first SAM you get after advancing far enough in rocket/missile tech. You'll get a 4-shot salvo of short-range SAMs in this system.

2. Re-tool Vindicator into a long-range strategic SAM. Give it a turret that looks like the tube launched strategic SAMs (think Patriot, or SA-20, or something like that) or perhaps big missiles on an external rail ("3 fingers of death" SA-6, or a Hawk missile site, or something similar). Make it an indirect fire anti-air weapon like the heavy caliber AAA above... though it would be able to shoot at things within its own line of sight, if you emplace an air defense radar two screens away it could launch a missile and shwack an approaching VTOL at long range. Only 1, maybe 2 shots per salvo, with 4-5 second firing delay and long (RippleRocket-like) reload time, but now you have a strategic SAM that can kill incoming heavy bombers, just like the heavy AAA that I describe above.

With this modification, you get 2 distinctly different air defense SAMs, which are effective against different types of VTOLs, but in a slightly different way than the modified AAA is. Instead of what you have now, which is just 2-shot or 4-shot versions of the exact same thing (once you get Vindicator, do you ever build Avenger anymore? No!) Now, of course there will be some kinks to work out - as I am not sure that a weapon can be both indirect-fire and homing at the same time, for example, or if AA weapons can even be made indirect at all. But maybe; I confess that I haven't cracked open weapons.txt in many years!

Finally. Stormbringer AAL. I obviously can't provide a real-world analogy, but I bet we'll have this in real life shortly. Since there's only one type of AA weapon in the laser line, it needs to be pretty versatile, and effective against all types of VTOLs. I don't think it would need to be modified in order to remain balanced against the AAA and SAM implementations I'm suggesting.

Thanks for reading this far (I know Whipper probably did :) ). Please reply with thoughts & discussion.
Per
Warzone 2100 Team Member
Warzone 2100 Team Member
Posts: 3780
Joined: 03 Aug 2006, 19:39

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by Per »

I like it.
guciomir
Trained
Trained
Posts: 133
Joined: 05 May 2009, 22:27

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by guciomir »

Great idea. It would be nice if some projectiles for flak weapons are not visible so the player will see only explosions.
User avatar
whippersnapper
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1183
Joined: 21 Feb 2007, 15:46

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by whippersnapper »

.

Yup, you know me. :)

And I agree with Per.

Excellent proposal all the way 'round. Not surprising, that.. Even though it's been quite a few years I still recall when you
were entering one of the finest military training institutions on the planet - The US Air Force Academy in Colorado. ( Btw,
I still have your new veg GFX map features from back in the day - they inspired a line of extensive new feature models done
last year for another project. Map features remain a deep well of untapped potential in WZ - esp the Urban Set.)

Regards, whipper :cool:
.
User avatar
zoid
Trained
Trained
Posts: 125
Joined: 13 Jun 2009, 00:45

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by zoid »

This is a great idea, man! Way better than Whirlwind obsoletes Cyclone obsoletes Hurricane. I especially love the idea of an air defense radar that lets you wipe out VTOLs before they arrive. I think the indirect fire for Whirlwind would be rather strange, best leave long range to SAMs. You could give Stormy long range, though. Realistically speaking, lasers have infinite range, being light rays. I would really love to see this in the game, or at least in a mod. :D
User avatar
Zarel
Elite
Elite
Posts: 5770
Joined: 03 Jan 2008, 23:35
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by Zarel »

Luke wrote:First, I'll address the AAA (yes, there's a third A, as AAA is what we call it in my profession).
If you're going to clarify the three A's, you could at least say what "AAA" stands for... It's Anti-Aircraft Artillery. Incidentally, the only reason I know this is because I decided to read a dictionary once, although I gave up after the first page.
Luke wrote:1. Hurricane turret. As the most primitive AAA system in the game (other than small arms), this should be the pure curtain-fire weapon. It already has a high rate of fire; just have it lead the target VTOLs a little more and don't self-destruct the rounds until they get a bit higher (Warzone AAA tends to miss short/low, for some reason). Allow its ROF and damage upgrades to continue making it a viable weapon that doesn't get obsoleted by Whirlwind, and always a strong defense against fast, light bodied VTOLs. Keep the various small arms (MGs) able to fire at VTOLs - if anything, increase their effectiveness a tiny bit.

2. Cyclone flak turret. Make this a true barrage weapon. Give it a rapid-firing 4-6 round clip, with medium duration reload (long enough that it will only get off 1 volley at a passing medium-speed VTOL), then decrease its accuracy wildly, while enormously increasing its splash radius and damage amount. This way, you can build true "Flak traps", more effective against medium-speed medium-body VTOLs, less effective against the fast ones because they fly out of the barrage zone quicker.

3. Whirlwind turret. Right now, behaves just like a "Hurricane 2.0" kind of weapon and does the same thing as Hurricane, only better. My recommendation: Re-tool this to be a heavy-caliber aimed AAA with extremely high damage, long range, and very long (howitzer-like) reload time. Give it only 1 or 2 shots, but enough bang to wipe out a light VTOL (though it could never hope to hit something that fast) or handily put a serious dent in a heavy bomber. Combine it with the air-defense radar I suggest in another thread, make it an indirect fire anti-air weapon, and you can now effectively shoot nonmaneuvering (i.e. straight-line-flying) VTOLs 2 screens away (this is NOT unrealistic). Expensive, slow to build/produce, but a viable threat even in T3.
...the problem is, the game is designed for a direct upgrade cycle. For some weapons, newer ones are designed to replace older ones. They're certainly designed to be better than older weapons.

I mean, having variety doesn't help much if Whirlwind does 3x as much DPS as Cyclone. You might want a barrage weapon, but Whirlwind can pretty much kill everything your barrage would hit before the Cyclone could reload, so what's the use?
Luke wrote:First I'll address one common thing - these missiles are too slow. Real-life (there it is again) SAMs fly half an order of magnitude faster than aircraft - so everytime I see a Warzone SAM chase a VTOL all the way across the map and end up hitting it at the rearming pad, I chuckle. They should fly roughly 2x as fast as the fastest VTOL - or perhaps as fast as the Lancer/TK/Scourge weapons.
Heh. I think Pumpkin made them that slow to show off their homing skills. Light VTOLs and SAMs both go at 700. I can bump them up to lancer speed (900), but note that a VTOL with Hero experience would be going at closer to 1000.
Luke wrote:1. Give Avenger 4 shots (i.e. turn it into Vindicator), but otherwise leave it as-is. This will be our short-range, point defense, tactical SAM system, which will be the first SAM you get after advancing far enough in rocket/missile tech. You'll get a 4-shot salvo of short-range SAMs in this system.

2. Re-tool Vindicator into a long-range strategic SAM. Give it a turret that looks like the tube launched strategic SAMs (think Patriot, or SA-20, or something like that) or perhaps big missiles on an external rail ("3 fingers of death" SA-6, or a Hawk missile site, or something similar). Make it an indirect fire anti-air weapon like the heavy caliber AAA above... though it would be able to shoot at things within its own line of sight, if you emplace an air defense radar two screens away it could launch a missile and shwack an approaching VTOL at long range. Only 1, maybe 2 shots per salvo, with 4-5 second firing delay and long (RippleRocket-like) reload time, but now you have a strategic SAM that can kill incoming heavy bombers, just like the heavy AAA that I describe above.
This is an interesting idea, but we don't really have the code for this (no support for indirect AA, nor indirect-homing). I agree that they could use more variety, though.
themousemaster
Regular
Regular
Posts: 611
Joined: 10 Nov 2006, 16:54

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by themousemaster »

Zarel wrote:Incidentally, the only reason I know this is because I decided to read a dictionary once, although I gave up after the first page.
Try a phone book. Much more interesting.
Zarel wrote:I mean, having variety doesn't help much if Whirlwind does 3x as much DPS as Cyclone. You might want a barrage weapon, but Whirlwind can pretty much kill everything your barrage would hit before the Cyclone could reload, so what's the use?
Since he's indicating that the "new" whirlwind would have the reload rate of a howitzer, the Barrage of the Cyclone would still be useful for large plane clusters, whereas the WW would be more for the slower bombers. Not that the SutpidVTOL design wouldn't still see a lot of use either way :P .




In any case, the "hitability" of AA fire needs to be fixed before mass changes to their function is put in, otherwise trying to balance one while not knowing how the other will affect the results would be problematic. Last thing I want is for planes to go from "nigh-invincible strike craft" to "the aerial version of the Human Wave strategy".
User avatar
Zarel
Elite
Elite
Posts: 5770
Joined: 03 Jan 2008, 23:35
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by Zarel »

themousemaster wrote:Since he's indicating that the "new" whirlwind would have the reload rate of a howitzer, the Barrage of the Cyclone would still be useful for large plane clusters, whereas the WW would be more for the slower bombers. Not that the SutpidVTOL design wouldn't still see a lot of use either way :P .
Well, in that case, the Cyclone would be pretty good for slower bombers, too, so why would anyone spend the tons of money researching Whirlwind?
themousemaster wrote:In any case, the "hitability" of AA fire needs to be fixed before mass changes to their function is put in, otherwise trying to balance one while not knowing how the other will affect the results would be problematic. Last thing I want is for planes to go from "nigh-invincible strike craft" to "the aerial version of the Human Wave strategy".
That was "fixed" long ago (currently all dedicated AA are homing).
themousemaster
Regular
Regular
Posts: 611
Joined: 10 Nov 2006, 16:54

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by themousemaster »

Zarel wrote:That was "fixed" long ago (currently all dedicated AA are homing).
Indeed?

It wasn't when I went through the 2.1 campaign. That said, I'm still on BETA3 of my walkthrough, when I get to a "wave" stage (that one where you have to destroy the commander as he moves from the NE to the NW to the SW sounds like a good choice) where tons of VTOLS never stop coming, I'll recheck that.




As for why anyone would buy the Whirlwind over the Cyclone in that case mentioned, I can think of two reasons:

A) depending on the range of the aircraft's weapons, perhaps the WW is designed to hit the "sniper" vtols (scourge, for example) before they can release their payload, and

B) depending on the actual difference in rate of fire to damage, it may be the case where the single-shot WW is superior to the Cyclone for individual targets (theoretical calculation: if the WW does 5X as much damage, but has 1/2 the fire rate of a cyclone AoE-AA, then the WW would be better vs 1 or 2 plane strikes, assuming equal "clumping")
User avatar
Zarel
Elite
Elite
Posts: 5770
Joined: 03 Jan 2008, 23:35
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by Zarel »

themousemaster wrote:Indeed?

It wasn't when I went through the 2.1 campaign. That said, I'm still on BETA3 of my walkthrough, when I get to a "wave" stage (that one where you have to destroy the commander as he moves from the NE to the NW to the SW sounds like a good choice) where tons of VTOLS never stop coming, I'll recheck that.
I mean it was fixed for 2.2 skirmish/multiplayer. Campaign is unaffected.
x_we12
New user
Posts: 1
Joined: 30 Mar 2010, 09:26

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by x_we12 »

Is this idea being implemented? I like it a lot!
Mats
Trained
Trained
Posts: 137
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 16:22
Location: Various

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by Mats »

Well this is a great proposal, but I think Luke will have to look at what the developers have said and discuss with them what is viable in-game. A change something along Luke's ideas would be just great though!
Full of ideas - Most are probably useless. Feel free to ignore them :)
Michal
Trained
Trained
Posts: 126
Joined: 10 Jan 2010, 18:07

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by Michal »

Whirlwind can can replace hurricane - it's more or less an AA Assault gun.

Cyclone was supposed as 'whirlwind for guys who don't research MG'. Anyway, there was a discussion a while ago (somewhere here...) to make it something like Luke says - a howitzer for AA. High splash to damage many VTOL (thus increasing their rearming time), while Whirlwind shooting them down one by one.
dodo black
Greenhorn
Posts: 11
Joined: 07 Dec 2009, 17:44
Location: poland

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by dodo black »

good idea Luke
User avatar
icefire
Trained
Trained
Posts: 52
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 18:47
Location: USA

Re: Re-tooling Air Defense

Post by icefire »

I like the idea's you have for the SAM's, but changing the Hurricane/Cyclone/Whirlwind has a huge problem with the way (experienced) people use vtols right now in multiplayer.

They don't use speedy light bodies
They don't use light weight weapons like lancer.

All people use, high oil or low oil, is thermite mantis, heap python(maybe), and plasmite scorpion. That's it.

They aren't slow, thermite or plasmite can sneak behind your lines before you even spot them if the player is smart.

And they don't send one to you're base, low oil they'll mass 5 or 6. High oil they'll mass 30+

If your changes were put into play, nobody would build whirlwinds, they'll build suicide cyclones and mass Hurricanes for the entire game until they get sams and stormbringers.

Sorry if this rubs off as harsh, but it's reality......

just ask daltx ;)