Request: Fixed AI Power

[Dark Mayu]

Skirmish games are really fun, but there's one thing which is extremely annoying: The AI is cheating! Not only do they have unlimited energy, they also are much faster with researching. While I am still sitting on medium cobra tanks, the AI already has Tiger HPV tanks, unfair! No chance to beat them especially if they have almost unlimited resources. The only possible tactic is to overrun the enemy with as many tanks and as soon as possible... The last time I played I concentrated on defence and VTOLs (the map was Gridlock), but that was pointless since the close grey AI base build 22 Hurricane Flags around their base! 22! I had to switch my tactic then and build a huge cyborg army(about 40), but when I attacked, I noticed that the AI base was cluttered with tons of tanks! All of them where heavy armoured and had rail guns or even scourge missiles. To be more precisely, there were so many tanks, they were not able to get out of the base anymore. Of course, my troop perished. Changing the AI level at the beginning of a skirmish game doesn't seem to affect this.
So my request is to fix the AI. I know that 2.3 is still work in progress, but it would be great if you do not leave this problem out. 1st of all, the AI shouldn't have such an advantage with researching and power. Also, defensive tactics should also work. Maybe, you could add a factor which speeds up research when not being offensive. This could maybe stack up so you have access to powerful defensive technologies much earlier. This would also be balanced: when being offensive, you have access to more energy resources and you're thus able to produce more tanks/vtols/cyborgs. Also, the AI could use this tactic. You wouldn't encounter the same AI tactic all the time.

Would be cool if others add their opinions, while I like my idea, it's not perfect ofc. Some suggestions would probably add new inspiration to the developers^^.

[Zarel]

Skirmish games are really fun, but there's one thing which is extremely annoying: The AI is cheating! Not only do they have unlimited energy, they also are much faster with researching. While I am still sitting on medium cobra tanks, the AI already has Tiger HPV tanks, unfair! No chance to beat them especially if they have almost unlimited resources. The only possible tactic is to overrun the enemy with as many tanks and as soon as possible...

The AI cheats power because it's not very hard to beat if it doesn't. It's not unlimited power, it's just more than you get. If you don't like it, push it to minimum difficulty, that'll disable the power cheating.

They are only much faster with researching because you research very slowly. As a comparator, when I have Scourge Missile Vengeance Tracks, the AI is usually still using Medium Cannon Cobra Tracks. Get to know the research tree - Synaptic Link Data Analysis up through Neural Synapse Research Brain is pretty useful.

Here's the entire tech tree: http://guide.wz2100.net/new/r/tech-tree-chart

The last time I played I concentrated on defence and VTOLs (the map was Gridlock), but that was pointless since the close grey AI base build 22 Hurricane Flags around their base! 22! I had to switch my tactic then and build a huge cyborg army(about 40), but when I attacked, I noticed that the AI base was cluttered with tons of tanks! All of them where heavy armoured and had rail guns or even scourge missiles. To be more precisely, there were so many tanks, they were not able to get out of the base anymore. Of course, my troop perished. Changing the AI level at the beginning of a skirmish game doesn't seem to affect this.

The "bunch of tanks stuck inside AI base" problem was fixed by Per recently, I think. But that they can make that many tanks isn't an issue - most people have no problem beating the AI at maximum difficulty. Turn down the difficulty, research faster, and attack faster.

So my request is to fix the AI. I know that 2.3 is still work in progress, but it would be great if you do not leave this problem out. 1st of all, the AI shouldn't have such an advantage with researching and power. Also, defensive tactics should also work. Maybe, you could add a factor which speeds up research when not being offensive. This could maybe stack up so you have access to powerful defensive technologies much earlier. This would also be balanced: when being offensive, you have access to more energy resources and you're thus able to produce more tanks/vtols/cyborgs. Also, the AI could use this tactic. You wouldn't encounter the same AI tactic all the time.

The AI has a slight bonus to research, but any normal player can still research much faster than the AI, because the AI doesn't focus on research very much anyway. The AI gets a pretty good bonus to power, but that's because it's really easy to beat without that bonus. You can turn off both the bonuses and make the AI fight like a normal player by pushing it to minimum difficulty, as I mentioned earlier.

Defensive tactics should work - many people here turtle against the AI, which is a lot easier than turtling against enemy players. We are not going to speed up research when not being offensive - the game is already balanced as is, and research is far too powerful already compared to similar RTSes. You already have access to powerful defenses very early on (MG tower comes to mind - it's your first defensive structure, and with just a few upgrades it rips apart MG viper wheels - and once you put them behind hardcrete walls, they're good even midgame).

You think someone who just sits in their base and researches and builds defenses should be able to hold off someone who controls the entire rest of the map and a huge army? It's not meant to be that way - if you turtle in your base, you should lose. I'm not disparaging the turtle strategy - I use it myself all the time - but for it to work, you have to capture and defend a proportionate number of oil derricks.

[Dark Mayu]

The AI cheats power because it's not very hard to beat if it doesn't. It's not unlimited power, it's just more than you get. If you don't like it, push it to minimum difficulty, that'll disable the power cheating.

I see. so the AI actually is not very intelligent, no wonder, the game's 10 years old^^. Well, a slight boost is ok, but the AI seems way too powerful currently (I should probably also test other maps)

They are only much faster with researching because you research very slowly. As a comparator, when I have Scourge Missile Vengeance Tracks, the AI is usually still using Medium Cannon Cobra Tracks. Get to know the research tree - Synaptic Link Data Analysis up through Neural Synapse Research Brain is pretty useful.

Here's the entire tech tree: http://guide.wz2100.net/new/r/tech-tree-chart

The "bunch of tanks stuck inside AI base" problem was fixed by Per recently, I think. But that they can make that many tanks isn't an issue - most people have no problem beating the AI at maximum difficulty. Turn down the difficulty, research faster, and attack faster.

The problem with this is that on the maps I play on, there're usually 7 AIs. until midgame, 2 of them perish thanks to my and the other AI's attacks. When destroying the remaining bases, I usually encounter 1 which is cluttered like this(but I have to admit that this problem happens far less than in earlier builds). Attacking one hostile tank in such a "clutter-base"(lol) causes all others to go after me. Whenever I found a base like this, I had to try different tactics, the best was to wait until I got plasmite bombs...

The AI has a slight bonus to research, but any normal player can still research much faster than the AI, because the AI doesn't focus on research very much anyway. The AI gets a pretty good bonus to power, but that's because it's really easy to beat without that bonus. You can turn off both the bonuses and make the AI fight like a normal player by pushing it to minimum difficulty, as I mentioned earlier.

Yes, I now understand why the AI gets the power bonus and that's ok. But I still think that they're too fast with researching. I know the tech tree, not perfectly, but I know what I need to research to get some specific items. But as an example, once I get the minirockets, the AI already has Lancer hover tanks(which aren't a big problem, I know), and once I have access to Python Tanks(with concentrating on this specific Tech Tree!), the AI already has Tiger HPV tanks. In one extreme case, I just got vtols, but the AI already had that missle fortress which made my airstrike look funny.
I'm also for a boost if the AI is too weak otherwise, but there're too many extremes happening with it atm...

Defensive tactics should work - many people here turtle against the AI, which is a lot easier than turtling against enemy players. We are not going to speed up research when not being offensive - the game is already balanced as is, and research is far too powerful already compared to similar RTSes. You already have access to powerful defenses very early on (MG tower comes to mind - it's your first defensive structure, and with just a few upgrades it rips apart MG viper wheels - and once you put them behind hardcrete walls, they're good even midgame).

You think someone who just sits in their base and researches and builds defenses should be able to hold off someone who controls the entire rest of the map and a huge army? It's not meant to be that way - if you turtle in your base, you should lose. I'm not disparaging the turtle strategy - I use it myself all the time - but for it to work, you have to capture and defend a proportionate number of oil derricks.

I'm sorry, I explained myself wrong here. Yes, Defensive actually works and is quite fun, but not on all maps(MizaMaze comes to mind). It's probably my tactic which doesn't work so well here, but whenever I send Trucks to build other Oil Derricks they sometimes find a hostile group which takes them out(were on the same way it seems, but this happens quite often...). Also, the MG-tower-behind-concrete-wall is something I really like to build, but it's useless if 20 AI tanks appear, especially while you're still building. I suppose that this also depends on the map...

[Zarel]

I see. so the AI actually is not very intelligent, no wonder, the game's 10 years old^^. Well, a slight boost is ok, but the AI seems way too powerful currently (I should probably also test other maps)

While we may not have as many players as we like, we do have numerous other players, and there are plenty who do not consider the AI "too hard". There's nothing wrong with being a beginner, so it's okay if you're still having trouble beating the AI on a certain difficulty level - keep practicing on lower difficulty levels. There are many people who can play against 7 AIs allied with each other on maximum difficulty, and still beat them.

The problem with this is that on the maps I play on, there're usually 7 AIs. until midgame, 2 of them perish thanks to my and the other AI's attacks. When destroying the remaining bases, I usually encounter 1 which is cluttered like this(but I have to admit that this problem happens far less than in earlier builds). Attacking one hostile tank in such a "clutter-base"(lol) causes all others to go after me. Whenever I found a base like this, I had to try different tactics, the best was to wait until I got plasmite bombs...

Well, the base clutter effect is fortunately fixed. You're right, though, in that if it gets to that point, you generally have to use alternate strategies. Incidentally, spamming flamers is a good method. Another good method involves Hellstorm.

Yes, I now understand why the AI gets the power bonus and that's ok. But I still think that they're too fast with researching. I know the tech tree, not perfectly, but I know what I need to research to get some specific items. But as an example, once I get the minirockets, the AI already has Lancer hover tanks(which aren't a big problem, I know), and once I have access to Python Tanks(with concentrating on this specific Tech Tree!), the AI already has Tiger HPV tanks. In one extreme case, I just got vtols, but the AI already had that missle fortress which made my airstrike look funny.
I'm also for a boost if the AI is too weak otherwise, but there're too many extremes happening with it atm...

It's true that the AI gets MRL and Lancer faster than you do, but those are the only exceptions. Python is not hard to get:

Engineering -> Cyborg Factory -> Factory Module -> Cobra -> Composite Alloys -> Composite Alloys 2 -> Python

(You also need Research Module and Power Module, but you should be getting them pretty early-game anyway)

The only time I've ever seen the AI use either Tiger or HPV was about half an hour after I get Scourge Missile. You should... work on your research. AI research speed is fine.

I'm sorry, I explained myself wrong here. Yes, Defensive actually works and is quite fun, but not on all maps(MizaMaze comes to mind). It's probably my tactic which doesn't work so well here, but whenever I send Trucks to build other Oil Derricks they sometimes find a hostile group which takes them out(were on the same way it seems, but this happens quite often...). Also, the MG-tower-behind-concrete-wall is something I really like to build, but it's useless if 20 AI tanks appear, especially while you're still building. I suppose that this also depends on the map...

Well, that's why your trucks should be accompanied by tanks, so they can be defended while they set up what they need to. And three or four MG towers is usually enough to repel an early-game attack of 20+ tanks.

[Dark Mayu]

I have to admit, you were right.
I spent the last week to check different tactics, difficulty settings and research options and discovered that it's really not that hard defeating the AI.

There were some mistakes I made, e.g. researching everything about mini-rockets while only the dmg-upgrades and accuracy were necessary for Lancer AT.

Setting the difficulty to the lowest possible level also gave me an idea about what you meant in your previous posts: The AI doesn't rely on research much.
Currently, I'm playing on medium which seems quite good for training and testing different tactics^^

Sorry for the hassle.

Topic can be closed if you wish