Rebalance 0.4.2!

[Zarel]

Well, it's the first time I've announced my Rebalance mod in this forum (I usually just announce on the IRC channel), but I guess it's time. I mean, I never get any feedback from the IRC channel, except that it seems everyone uses it (I'm so proud of myself). But you guys need to actually provide feedback!

This is the Warzone 2100 Rebalance Mod version 0.4.2:

http://guide.wz2100.net/new/ (Direct download)

Notable changes since 0.4.1:

- VTOLs partially fixed. Feedback welcome.
- Cannons and rails have more HP.
- Assault/Twin Assault Cannon slightly weakened (still much stronger than 1.10 and 2.1; stop worrying). TK also weakened.
- All weapons that do splash damage will always do splash damage, none of this 25% chance of doing splash damage b.s.
- Rails do splash damage now, and are worth upgrading to now.
- Angel Missile! Now a viable replacement for MRL!
- Heavy cyborgs are slightly lighter. Should be able to move now.
- Truck builds slower. Truck rushes aren't nearly so effective now.
- The rest of the structure prereqs are gone.
- Research tree reworked. Rockets/missiles have an easier time upgrading now. Pulse Laser isn't hidden behind GTE anymore.

Rebalance 0.4.2 isn't in trunk yet (I think Trunk has 0.3.0 or something... it's pretty old), by the way, since I try to avoid committing each small balance change.

[Per]

Zarel, you are the master of terseness. You tell me how you've fixed VTOL, and I'll give you feedback

[Zarel]

Like that:

http://wzguide.co.cc/new/w/#vtolweapons

Seriously, the Guide has every single change I've made. Anyone who wants exact changes can just put it side-by-side with 2.1 or 1.10 and compare them yourself. I've even color-coded Rebalance to be green, to make that easier!

[3drts]

I still don't get why VTOL Flashlight gets only 2 shots, and VTOL Pulse gets a whole lot more (8?)
I think its because in weapons.txt it has a salvo size of 4 - even though it fires singles, so its 2 attack runs (ie 2 salvos) x 4 shots per salvo/attack run.
I remember back in 1.08 or so the VTOL pulse had in the design screen an ROF of 120.
I wonder if this was due to the assignment of a salvo size to pulse, and if it was a mistake that pulse had as much ammo as it did in the first place - anyway, a high capacity pulse seems entrenched in wz2100.

I'd just like to see other weapons brought up in capacity so pulse isn't the dominant VTOL weapon.
Why does pulse have more Damage, AND more capacity than Flash? (note: I'd like to see a buff to flash capacity, not a pulse nerf)
Why does rail get only 2 shots - realistically, a rail gun could hold a whole lot more ammo than a cannon, and vtol cannons hold 4 (6 for the HPV in previous wz versions I believe).
Rails, as cannon replacements, should hold 4 shots too IMO.
I'd also *like* if VTOL rails could fire at airborne targets.


So far I like the new Angel missile, need to play with it more.

As for Scourge.... at a ROF of 24 fully upgraded, and a salvo of 2, it fires once every 5 seconds.
Contrast with the TK rockets, which fire a whole lot slower and each salvo does a whole lot more damage (4 rockets, 600 each, scourge is only 2 missiles, 569 each), with an ROF of only 11, it fires about every 20 seconds.
This seems to me to make the TK better for hit and run attacks - fire a salvo and pullback, repeat - with the scourge ROF, you might as well stand there and keep firing, by the time you've moved back, your next salvo is ready and its time to advance again.

Is this intended to keep Scourge from essentially being a T-3 TK?
I would suggest a ROF decrease to Scourge and proportional damage increase.

[Zarel]

I still don't get why VTOL Flashlight gets only 2 shots, and VTOL Pulse gets a whole lot more (8?)
I think its because in weapons.txt it has a salvo size of 4 - even though it fires singles, so its 2 attack runs (ie 2 salvos) x 4 shots per salvo/attack run.
I remember back in 1.08 or so the VTOL pulse had in the design screen an ROF of 120.
I wonder if this was due to the assignment of a salvo size to pulse, and if it was a mistake that pulse had as much ammo as it did in the first place - anyway, a high capacity pulse seems entrenched in wz2100.

I increased the number of shots when I decreased the damage. I should probably increase the Flashlight to 3x2.

I'd just like to see other weapons brought up in capacity so pulse isn't the dominant VTOL weapon.
Why does pulse have more Damage, AND more capacity than Flash? (note: I'd like to see a buff to flash capacity, not a pulse nerf)

What's flash?

Why does rail get only 2 shots - realistically, a rail gun could hold a whole lot more ammo than a cannon, and vtol cannons hold 4 (6 for the HPV in previous wz versions I believe).
Rails, as cannon replacements, should hold 4 shots too IMO.

Meh. They have slower reload, I interpret that as less VTOL ammo. I'll increase it to 3. No more than that. <_<

I'd also *like* if VTOL rails could fire at airborne targets.

Why? Firing at airborne targets is for weapons actually designed for that, like missiles, and lasers.

As for Scourge.... at a ROF of 24 fully upgraded, and a salvo of 2, it fires once every 5 seconds.
Contrast with the TK rockets, which fire a whole lot slower and each salvo does a whole lot more damage (4 rockets, 600 each, scourge is only 2 missiles, 569 each), with an ROF of only 11, it fires about every 20 seconds.
This seems to me to make the TK better for hit and run attacks - fire a salvo and pullback, repeat - with the scourge ROF, you might as well stand there and keep firing, by the time you've moved back, your next salvo is ready and its time to advance again.

Is this intended to keep Scourge from essentially being a T-3 TK?
I would suggest a ROF decrease to Scourge and proportional damage increase.

You realize TK only fires 2 rockets now? I never liked how Troman made it fire 4 rockets, so I decreased it back down. It's 2 every 10 seconds, not 4 every 20 seconds (mouseover the ROF in the Guide - seriously, does no one pay attention to it?)

I always thought Scourge already does enough damage... 600+ is pretty extreme for a single missile - I think only Plasma Cannon and Ground Shaker do more, and they both reload lots more slowly (and they only fire once per salvo, not twice). iirc, 2 600+ missiles should be enough to kill nearly any tank anyway, so higher damage won't help much.

[3drts]

Flash=Flashlight
3x2 works for me

3 for Rails is acceptable to me, an improvement at the least
(note the difference in Base ROF between cannons and rails isn't that much
LC =20 Needle= 15 -> 4:3 ratio . MC/HPV 15 Rail= 12 5:4 ratio)

TK fires 2 rockets now? ok, I should have checked that.
Still seems odd that it does more damage than a guided missile (aka scourge)
I guess its fine.

As to rails shooting down aircraft - rail guns should fire very high velocity rounds, which should work against aircraft reasonably well if the gun is accurate enough (you would need to lead the target much, and thus wouldn't need a high ROF weapon like an AA gun)

And the platform a weapon is deployed on very much affects what it can be used for.

The Me-262 used 24x R4M rockets in an air-to-air role (mainly anti-bomber) - but such rockets would be useless if launched from a ground platform against a strafing fighter- but launched by one fighter right on the tail of another aircraft is a different story.
The same goes for the 70mm "mighty mouse" rockets of the F-86D Sabre Dog (an update of the old Sabre) - intended for anti air use, when 70mm rockets now are used exclusively for ground attack by fixed and rotary winged aircraft.

Note that TK rockets and lancers can't shoot air on vehicles, but no one has a problem with them doing so on VTOLs
An anti- tank missile realistically is useless against an aircraft.
By the logic similar to yours, scourge and rockets should not be able to engage other VTOLs, and we would need VTOL Vindicators and Avengers (many SAMs have been the result of AA missiles being mounted on the ground, and Stinger SAMs are often mounted on helicopters in the A to A role)

So rather than a debate about suitability of "weapon design" - I think we should stick to gameplay.
Would it be detrimental to gameplay if VTOL railguns could engage other VTOLs?

Would VTOLs with Rail firing 3 shots (effective against structures and Hover to tracked tanks) that can engage other VTOLs be over powered relative to VTOLs with pulse firing 8 shots (effective against cyborgs, hovers, soft structures and bunkers) that can engage other VTOLs?

I am of the opinion that non-bomber VTOLs should be able to defend themselves against other VTOLs - at least with poor accuracy, but I wouldn't mind if VTOL minipod and cannon could shoot down the slower moving HEAP and Thermite bombers

[Zarel]

As to rails shooting down aircraft - rail guns should fire very high velocity rounds, which should work against aircraft reasonably well if the gun is accurate enough (you would need to lead the target much, and thus wouldn't need a high ROF weapon like an AA gun)

And the platform a weapon is deployed on very much affects what it can be used for.

Well, the thing is, it seems to me that cannons and rails have a heavier launcher that would be harder to angle at both the ground and the air, and so it'd be easier just to keep them pointed at the ground. Rockets/missiles, on the other hand, are lighter and longer range, so it's easier just to angle them straight ahead and move the VTOL itself to aim at either ground or air targets.

Note that TK rockets and lancers can't shoot air on vehicles, but no one has a problem with them doing so on VTOLs

By the "angled straight ahead" theory, the VTOLs can face anything on the ground or in the air, but no one's going to angle the entire tank up to hit aircraft. This is also why the corresponding cyborgs can hit air - it's easier for them to angle the launcher up.

An anti- tank missile realistically is useless against an aircraft.

True aircraft, maybe, but VTOLs are basically tanks with antigrav attached to them.

By the logic similar to yours, scourge and rockets should not be able to engage other VTOLs, and we would need VTOL Vindicators and Avengers (many SAMs have been the result of AA missiles being mounted on the ground, and Stinger SAMs are often mounted on helicopters in the A to A role)

What logic? VTOL scourges and rockets don't do nearly as much damage as vindicators/avengers, precisely because they're not dedicated anti-air.

So rather than a debate about suitability of "weapon design" - I think we should stick to gameplay.

Oh, I'm a balancer. Do you really want to fight me on my home turf?

Would it be detrimental to gameplay if VTOL railguns could engage other VTOLs?

Would VTOLs with Rail firing 3 shots (effective against structures and Hover to tracked tanks) that can engage other VTOLs be over powered relative to VTOLs with pulse firing 8 shots (effective against cyborgs, hovers, soft structures and bunkers) that can engage other VTOLs?

I am of the opinion that non-bomber VTOLs should be able to defend themselves against other VTOLs - at least with poor accuracy, but I wouldn't mind if VTOL minipod and cannon could shoot down the slower moving HEAP and Thermite bombers

See, the thing is, cannons/rails are basically bombers. You have to remember that cannons/rails are all-rounder weapons now.

Here's the breakdown of what VTOLs are good against what:

Bombers: Cyborgs, Structures
Cannons/Rails: Tanks, Structures
Rockets/Missiles: Tanks, Aircraft, Bunkers
Pulse: Cyborgs, Aircraft, Bunkers

Seems fair enough to me. After all, the rockets/pulse do less damage to walls than cannons/bombers do to bunkers, and rockets/pulse do less damage to bunkers than cannons/bombers do to walls.

[3drts]

So you do have balance in mind then?

I gotta say you're angled up vs down whatever is a weak argument.

Germans mounted 50mm cannons on wwII aircraft, for A to A or anti tank use.
We mounted forward firing 75 mm cannons on our B-25's for anti ship use in the pacific, you don't need to angle a weapon at the ground, even if it is heavy - you typically move the entire craft to fire, by going in a shallow dive.

On exception is the AC-130U gunship, which has a 105mm howitzer sticking out of its side, along with a 40mm autocannon and a 25mm gatling cannon, all basically useless as AA due to their mounting - they are designed such that the ac-130 "orbits" the target area with its guns facing inwards....

The earlier versions with just 20mm vulcan cannons had this same limitation - an airframe limitation, not a weapon limitation, prevented AA use - the 20mm Vulcan cannon is primarily used for close A to A combat, and the same 25mm gatling gun on the latest version is also used on the Harrier line as fixed forward firing general purpose (close air support and air combat) guns.

Also, the heavier the weapon,the more likely it will be fixed forward firing, as heavier weapons require heavier turret mounts, and a fixed weapon not firing forward is very difficult to aim.

Stick to the balance argument, not that a weapon must be designed to be an AA weapon to be able to function as an AA weapon on an airborne platform.

So you think it would break the balance if VTOL rail could target air? they would be too effective vs everything?

Because right now I think VTOL pulse is effective against everything, at least when capacity is taken into account (although I attack en masse with VTOLs and don't micro different targets for subdivisions of my vtol group)

Moving on... would it break the balance if we gave VTOLs a standoff AOE weapon in T-2 ->T-3?

When I see large AA squares or lines on the squared map, or some other high oil map, I can't help but wish for an AOE weapon to engage them with - or some way to turn my VTOLs really inaccurate so they scatter fire around the AA gun they target on their first strike (which is almost always over kill because as I said, I can't really micro my vtols that well, and they will all have fired at the first target before any rounds hit)

HEAP bombs are nice, but to heavy and short range- I'm thinking some heavy missile with a blast diameter of 2 tiles
Sending in BB or other rocket vtols one at time just won't cut it, and I can't micro well enough to send 20 rocket/BB vtols in at once to target 20 different AA emplacements.

So I end up using cannons or pulse and using multi targeting/target queing to try and wipe out many AA guns in one pass, but the time over target is too much and losses are way too high.

Maybe its my problem and I should try a 2nd group of bombers spread out enough to not all fire at once, and send them in to do splash damage to the AA guns when my cannons/pulse are distracting the aa guns...