Having trouble dealing with VTOLs and other issues.

[Bob Loblaw]

I am playing the campaign and I am on Beta 7: Capture NASDA control and I am having some problems. When I land, I figured out I need to use VTOLs to blast the sensor on the NW corner of the base so I can leave the shallow depression and create a forward base. No problem. Then as I am building AA defenses, enemy VTOLs come in and take out one to three of my planes at a time which are unable to yet rearm. Even a set of six Whirlwind turrets don't slow them down one bit. With five minutes between reinforcements - how do I keep any units alive?

I tried later bringing some howitzers attached to a sensor. However, the howitzers seem not to leave the depression and the sensor runs right up to the enemy defenses when I target them and gets blasted to smithereens.

Also repairing units seems to cause problems, especially with a large group attached to a commander. Some units seem to sit there and have to be removed from the group and manually sent to the repair bay.

Any suggestions on these items? Thanks

[whippersnapper]

.

Have you seen this: Tips for Beta 7 Mission

[Bob Loblaw]

I have read that but the VTOLs continue to crush me upon entry.

[Skrim]

That link is not entirely accurate. The Beta 11 and Gamma 8 descriptions are fatally misleading, and will get you killed(as what happened to me the very first time I encountered Gamma .

Mousemaster would be the best person to ask in case of campaign help, but I'll chip in a bit myself. Here are 6 pics of my start to this mission:

wz2100_shot_360.png

wz2100_shot_378.png

wz2100_shot_387.png

The remaining 3 pics will be in the next post.

[Skrim]

wz2100_shot_394.png

wz2100_shot_407.png

wz2100_shot_410.png

Once all that is done, I bring in 10 VTOLs(5 Bunker Buster Mantis and 5 Phosphor Bomb Leopard) and 10 mobile howitzer units(Howitzer Python Tracks).

The BB Mantis VTOLs go about destroying every last AA site on the map, and then the Phosphor Bombers take down the Collective's Factory and Cyborg Factory to cut off the flow of new enemy units. When that's over, the VTOLs go around picking off all those Bombard Pits scattered over the map until there is no Collective artillery left, of any kind.

Then, I use trucks to build Sensor Towers and VTOL Radar Towers further south and give them control of my artillery emplacements, artillery units, and bomber VTOLs. They go around bombarding stuff until everything in sight of the towers is dead. After that, I send the trucks around the far south side of the map and build another pair of towers. This process repeats until everything is dead, around the 35-40 minutes left mark. I collect the artifacts and sit around researching. My tanks do nothing the entire mission except for defend the LZ.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My first load for any transport mission, from Alpha 9 to the end of the campaign, is always 7 heavy tanks, 1 commander, and 2 trucks. The build order for the trucks is always Repair Facility, followed by defensive structures(including AA sites) and then artillery emplacements, sensor/CB towers, and VTOL Rearming Pads.

That Collective fighter squadron that makes periodic attacks against your LZ tends to target whatever they see first. So, by bringing in heavy tanks, they target those instead of more fragile units like trucks, artillery units and VTOLs. Another advantage of bringing heavy tanks in first is that they don't need supporting infrastructure apart from a Repair Facility, can absorb a lot of damage, and are versatile enough to fight off any ground-based attack that the enemy sends you.

As for mobile sensor units, I quit using them after Beta 5 and replace them with groups of 2 or 3 trucks that build Sensor Towers and any other sensory equipment that may be required. Sensor Towers have longer range and are automatic. They don't need to micromanaged and don't need to establish a direct lock - anything that you can see and is within their range is targeted automatically. In the Gamma Campaign, mobile sensor units cannot be used any which way, because enemy direct-fire weapons actually have longer range than they do by this point.

About the howitzers sitting in the LZ depression, you have to manually drive them out and then assign them to a sensor. They'll follow sensor units only if the sensor unit is very far from their position, and will not bother to move at all when assigned to a Sensor Tower. And, if your units are not retreating automatically when they're damaged, just right-click your commander and click the Retreat at Medium Damage setting again.

Whatever I said is from a version 2.0.10 viewpoint. If you're playing v2.1, some stuff might be different, like AA guns being much weaker, TKs being much stronger, Heavy Cannons being less tough, etc.

[whippersnapper]

.Played through the CAM countless times but only on the Pumpkin binary - in a "Neverland" long ago, it occurs to me at this moment.

Whatever I said is from a version 2.0.10 viewpoint. If you're playing v2.1, some stuff might be different, like AA guns being much weaker, TKs being much stronger, Heavy Cannons being less tough, etc.

If that is so - that the CAM is effected by stat mods in the WRP binaries - then Tips taken from the original Prima Fast Track Guide for the retail release (can you believe this darn $12.00 book is selling for $ 57.00 bucks in collectible shape) can only be suspect and need revision. I did not realize this was the state of affairs having only played the original CAM un-modded. I also see that it is a Timed Mission in your screens - i should pull my retail CDs from storage and check cause I coulda swore it was UN-timed in the original... but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me,...

...

[elio]

If that is so - that the CAM is effected by stat mods in the WRP binaries - then Tips taken from the original Prima Fast Track Guide for the retail release (can you believe this darn $12.00 book is selling for $ 57.00 bucks in collectible shape) can only be suspect and need revision. I did not realize this was the state of affairs having only played the original CAM un-modded. I also see that it is a Timed Mission in your screens - i should pull my retail CDs from storage and check cause I coulda swore it was UN-timed in the original... but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me,...
...

afaik only multiplayer stats changed, i think it is caused by the new hit-system (for example, maybe more)

[whippersnapper]

afaik only multiplayer stats changed, i think it is caused by the new hit-system (for example, maybe more)

- Oh.. ok, that makes sense. For many good reasons the CAM should be self-contained and apart from MP & SKI.
For one the 3rd campaign wouldn't work at all with the critical stat tweaking Pumpkin did to Nexus that is different than
the same stuff in MP-SKI...Also, after the CAM's retail release Pumpkin added a bunch of Tech-Units that they created
specifically for the 10 patches they released between April '99 - Sept. '99..

..

[Bob Loblaw]

Thanks for the very detailed help, Skirm and others! I use the Mantis body almost exclusively at this stage, perhaps I should be using the Panther body since the VTOLs come and take out at least one of my tanks per visit. I hate losing veterans this way so I stuffed a transport full of mostly green recruits. Also, the flak seems to do little to slow down the predatory VTOLs when I try it. They take a few hits and just keep right on after my tanks.

[themousemaster]

Mousemaster would be the best person to ask in case of campaign help...

Why thank you.




I know what has been said is that the balancing changes should have only applied to Multiplayer/Skirmish only, but I find that not to be the case. Having replayed the campaign in 2.1, I can tell you that a number of things are different; Assault guns are weaker, Scourges (which you may not have seen yet) will no longer be nearly as lethal... and AA has generally gone to pot.

If you are going to bring down aircraft with AA, you need BOATLOADS of them, due to the VERY poor hit calculations they suffer from now (only the slowest VTOLs get hit with any regularity). The best way to bring down an aircraft before you get SAMs is to make your own anti-VTOL VTOLs. Tank killers work well if you can get the enemy aircraft into a head-on fight...

That said, this map (for version 2.1 anyway) is more of a blatant weathering down of the enemy forces, rather than a "kill em before they kill you" type.



Step 1: Do you have a lot of cash? if you don't want to suffer huge unit losses on this stage, you will need it.

Step 2: Do you have a savegame in the previous stage? Mantis bodies are good stuff in multiplayer games where you want a fast, heavy body; but for the Campaign, where build times and costs can largely be offset by just standing around in stages watching your money tick up... Python/Tiger are the way to go. If you can go "back in time" and change your heavy units from Mantis to Python/Tiger (you won't be finding much in the way of flamethrowing opponents anyway), do so (depending on which one you have available. I think Python by beta8).

Step 3: Make your first force 1/2 trucks, 1/2 heavy combat units. Upon landing, call for another 5 and 5.

Step 4: Immediately upon landing, have your truck corp build a repair bay directly south of the LZ. The first Collective air-raid should target it, rather than your units. Once it blows to heck, have 1 of the 5 trucks start rebuilding it, have truck #2 start a Hardcrete anti-tank structure to the east, have truck #3 "start" building another hardcrete structure to the east, then have him help truck #2 until the first one is finished, have trcuks #4 and 5 start setting up Howitzers in the location Skirm has shown in hist first photo.

Step 5: After an agonizing minute or 2, the planes will return, and shortly before, during, or after that, a small land force will show from the east. Have your battle units meet it, but close enough such that your hardcrete towers can provide supporting fire. With any luck, the planes will target one of your structures (in my case, it was my northern of the 2 hardcrete towers).

Step 6: Once your trucks are done their initial builds, have #1 - #3 start building mass AA against the NORTH edge of the map, on the western side of the small cliff east of your LZ. *normally*, once a few of them are up, the Attacking VTOLs will concentrate on them, instead of anything of value. So if you can survive 3-5 VTOL strikes, they will stop posing a problem... *normally*. have #1 - #3 keep building AA for most of the rest of the map, replacing fallen AA sites, and making new ones. Trucks 4 and 5 continue to build Howitzers. When your first reinforcements land, put the trucks to work building mroe AA and howitzers.

Step 7: Once you have a fair number of AA guns and at least 5 (preferably more) howitzers, place a SENSOR (not a CB) tower on the cliff just south of your LZ (in Skirm's sixth picture, you'll notice he has that area I am referring to sandwiched between rows of AA cannons). The sensor will spot the first couple of buildings on the enemy cliff just SE of the LZ. Your howitzers will fire,a nd enemy CB fire will immediately come in. However, if you have your howitzers spaced enough, only 2 will get taken out in the counter barrage (maybe less, if the hitboxes are being nice and the enemy shells hit the cliff wall instead of your guns). The 2nd round of outgoing 105mm fire should take out the enemy's nearby Sensor tower.



Congratulations. With th enemy AA occupied in a constant war with AA guns you are continuously replacing, and the only indirect fire your LZ will receive is of the CB variety, you can now dispatch this stage however you want; VTOLs, Tank push, mass artillery, take your pick. If you want to go the Artillery route, start putting some more Howitzers on the cliff you put the Sensor on, and give them a CB to work with as well; then proceed to keep building Howitzers straight down the western edge of the map (once the enemy buildings that can overlook said area are dropped anyway). VTOLs, I shouldn't have to explain. Tanks, take 15 or so, move east tot he central area of the map's northern edge, bring some trucks in behind them to build a repair bay, set everyone to retreat at medium, and just move in, hugging the walls to start (going straight up the center will subject you to LOTS of artillery fire; not to mention accidentally getting the objective before you've suitably cleared the area out, which would be a disaster).

Whichever method you use, once you've carved a nice niche for yourself, start building AA EVERYWHERE, as ridiculous amounts of Whirlwinds, or a few good TK pilots, are the only ways you will get rid of the VTOLs. Good news: unlike some beta stages, once the starting planes in this one are gone, the Collective doesn't like replacing them. (Friggin go-stop-the-commander-before-he-gets-off-stage-oh-and-by-the-way-10-TK-planes-will-spawn-every-60-seconds map...)




PROTIP: it is possible to abuse the game physics to make the VTOLs easier to deal with, if you are feeling lucky. While all units speeds change with the game speed, not all units turning radiusii do (ever see the bug where your transport spins in place rather than getting back offscreen to pick up more troops?). If you luck out and a plane tries to attack a unit/structure VERY close to the edge, try turning the game speed to max, and see if he gets stuck on the map's edge. Even as pitiful as AA are in 2.1, if they have an infinite amount of time to fire at a target, they bring it down eventually ;p. Note that I am not saying this WILL work; I've only ever had success with this on the 2nd to last beta stage. But it can happen. Either way, the above strat got me the win in this stage with a single truck as a casualty in 2.1.

[Skrim]

If you are going to bring down aircraft with AA, you need BOATLOADS of them, due to the VERY poor hit calculations they suffer from now (only the slowest VTOLs get hit with any regularity). The best way to bring down an aircraft before you get SAMs is to make your own anti-VTOL VTOLs. Tank killers work well if you can get the enemy aircraft into a head-on fight...

"Anti-VTOL VTOLs". Geez.
"Air Superiority Fighter" just sounds cooler(I used this term quite a bit months ago in my "Hi" thread). It's also the real-world term for anti-aircraft aircraft.

The problem with fighters set on Patrol or attached to VTOL Radar Towers is that they prefer to go after ground targets, and can't be made to only fight other aircraft. The method I used to use was to keep them patrolling on the enemy flight path with Hold Fire settings, slow down the game to 0.1x once an enemy squadron came into sight, and manually targeting each of the enemy aircraft with my fighters.

The only missions where automated Fighter patrols or Radar Tower interceptions are useful are where there are no ground targets in the vicinity, like in Beta 11(if you've got the ground vectors bunkered off), Gamma 3(part 1), Gamma 8, and Gamma 9 once the towers & SAM sites around the LZ have been cleared.

The only time I've seen an AI trying out air-to-air combat is in Gamma 9, when enemy Scourge fighters actually chased down my bombers when they were returning from an SAM-killing mission. I lost a bomber, but not before my own Scourge fighter patrol had killed two of the enemy fighters.

Step 2: Do you have a savegame in the previous stage? Mantis bodies are good stuff in multiplayer games where you want a fast, heavy body; but for the Campaign, where build times and costs can largely be offset by just standing around in stages watching your money tick up... Python/Tiger are the way to go. If you can go "back in time" and change your heavy units from Mantis to Python/Tiger (you won't be finding much in the way of flamethrowing opponents anyway), do so (depending on which one you have available. I think Python by beta8).

Python is available at the start of Alpha 9. Mantis is available at the end of Alpha 12. Tiger is available towards the end of Beta 10.

The toughest equipment available at this stage is Python. In fact, the Heavy Cannon Python Tracks design is strong enough to serve from Alpha 12 to Gamma 1(though not optimum for Gamma 1, it's still competent). I never use any other tank design except this one throughout the Beta Campaign(apart from the Tigers which I start constructing at the end of Beta 10, but those don't see combat until Gamma 1).

Mantis is my choice for building heavy-body Bunker Buster VTOLs in Beta, because it's faster than Python but still strong enough to plow through any air defenses that may be encountered in Beta(they can even take a volley of Avenger SAMs to the face and survive). Leopard serves as a fighter and light bomber body because it looks cool, reloads quickly, and can take a bit of flak and MG fire without much trouble(Bug is cheaper and lighter, but uglier). Scorpion is used to haul HEAP Bombs once they become available at the end of this mission, because it's the fastest chassis available at this point.

In Gamma of course, Tiger takes over as the primary tank chassis, and Retribution(once it becomes available) replaces Mantis and Scorpion as a bomber VTOL chassis. Towards the end of the campaign(Gamma 7-9), I also replace half of my Tiger tanks with Retribution hovers, but I doubt anybody follows that one-off strategy.

[themousemaster]

The reason I don't use "Air superiority Fighter" is because, in modern lingo at least, that refers to a plane whose only real ability is to fight other aircraft. TK-VTOLS can shoot anything.

But that's enough verbiage nitpicking for today.

I never thought about that whole slowing-down-the-game-to-target-VTOL things... I always just target them at normal gamespeed... probably a force of habit from playing people who don't like their settings changed mid game

[Skrim]

Real air superiority fighters can attack ground targets as well, but that's their secondary role. The F-22 got renamed F/A-22 to emphasize it's ground attack capability, and then got renamed again to F-22 because it was decided that it's just an air-to-air fighter and not a fighter/attack plane. Shortly afterwards, the F-117 Nighthawk dedicated bomber fleet was taken out of service because the F-22 was deemed as being more than capable enough to take over the F-117's role(and also because the Nighthawks were maintenance hogs).

But in WZ, VTOLs can't be compared to any real-world aircraft. They're something more like a combination of a Moller M400 Skycar with an A-10 Warthog, but carrying only one weapon at once, and a rather small payload(instead of the menacing, huge payload with a wide variety of weaponry the A-10 wields). But then, they can't be blamed, because the tanks don't seem to fire any type of ammunition apart from APFSDS. If the cannons in WZ were like real-world cannons, then they'd be able to switch between Anti Tank, Anti Structure, and Artillery Round damage types at will(i.e, APFSDS, HESH, and HE-Frag shells).

Back to the game, how do you manually target enemy fighters coming in at speed 700, at regular game speed?!! That would need heroic mousework and ridiculous reflexes.

[Bob Loblaw]

They got me again! I restarted the campaign due to some hard drive issues and I am at an earlier Beta Mission (the one in which you must kill the command turrent and take the artifact). Well I built a good double hedge of AA turrets and still while I wait for Captain Janks to make his appearance I automatically lose one tank per sortie. I even went with heavy cannons with cobra armor. Should I show up with a bunch of AA for the first trip then later call in tanks?

[Skrim]

They got me again! I restarted the campaign due to some hard drive issues and I am at an earlier Beta Mission (the one in which you must kill the command turrent and take the artifact). Well I built a good double hedge of AA turrets and still while I wait for Captain Janks to make his appearance I automatically lose one tank per sortie. I even went with heavy cannons with cobra armor. Should I show up with a bunch of AA for the first trip then later call in tanks?

You're suffering from this problem:

And yes, that;s what mauld me. That one away mission where you have to stop the Beta commander before he gets out of the bottom left of the map, but if you attack any of his group, he turns around and retreats into that heavily defended base... it has a regular spawn of 10 TK-planes that will 1-shot any unit they choose. Eventually, I just sent in 10 scrub Lancer hover units, waited for him to try and get off screen, suicided them all on the commander, and killed him with 3 units left.

I haven't played 2.1, and in 2.0.10 this mission is much easier. The last two times I played this mission, I also got helped by luck. The first time, the Commander got trapped by his own base's Tank Traps while retreating and got separated from his group, locked out of his base, immobilized, and killed. The second time, I ambushed the commander just as his guys were beginning to come down the bridge and engaging the decoy bunkers I had set up for them. He turned around to retreat, rammed into a derelict building, got pinned down by my tanks, and assassinated. xD

Of course, my experience with this mission won't help since you're playing 2.1 and the Collective Commander's air cover is now provided by crack aces flying invincible war machines(instead of the suicidal rank amateurs in paper planes you find in 2.0.10). So you can try the kamikaze run described in the quote above, and see how it works.