"the elephant in the room."

[whippersnapper]

whippersnapper wrote: Olrox, appreciate what you are trying to do, HOW you are going about it AND your temperament in dealing with the responses to what you've done. imho, all admirable. dealing with warzone source-game in any active way is a great learning experience that can also be tons of fun.

Zarel wrote: I agree.

++ i start by emphasizing this point because i very much respect the work being done by coders, artists, musicians, modders and mappers. i have loved wz for some time and all this creative activity is like a Renaissance - impressive, exciting, inspiring. so please do not take anything i utter here as some lowly attempt at flame bait. nothing could be further from the truth in my motivation.

whippersnapper wrote: pure, unadulterated, hogwash.

Zarel wrote: Happens sometimes. I have a tendency to act like I know more than I do - definitely feel free to call me out in those cases. I look forward to hearing you explain how I was wrong.

++ i over-stated my case. all are entitled to their opinion. i love the works of picasso, kandinsky, monet, van gough, da vinci, rubens, el greco, van de meer, rembrandt, bearden, hopper, to name a few and these are by consensus considered some of the greatest of all time and whose single works have sold for upwards of 40 million a piece. however, the established consensus and dollar amounts attached mean nothing to me as far as why i respond to these works. i also love the comic book art of frank miller and jim steranko whose work will never be considered great by the art community and whose pieces will never command anything but a tiny fraction of the dollar amount of a monet, for example. i also love the work of artists that have absolutely no reputation which i can afford to buy for a couple hundred bucks.. art is the selective recreation of reality according to artist's metaphysical value judgments - and it is the resonance between those sensibilities (artist work and appreciator) that is at stake and very personal indeed no matter what is assessed great, good, mediocre or just plain bad art by any of the established cannons of taste...

whippersnapper wrote: i'm an artist, grew up in art (mom a painter / author, dad a musician, both pros...all my sibs too, 2 bros & a sis), have moved in art circles all my life, my formal art education is rock solid and i've made money at it too.

Zarel wrote: That's nice. We need people like you to help in our project, and I'm glad we have you.

++ well i reached a mount everest as a result of my testing in all the extant wz binaries as well as a feasibility analysis by professional coders (including my bro and a good bloke, each with 20+ years pro coding experience under their belts) of the wz source in its pumpkin state and post pumpkin state. for me the painful net result of all that was i decided my best move was to roll all my data and game play work into another container-engine. painful because i wanted so much to able to ride the pumpkin source all the way and had acted with that in mind for so long it was very hard to let it go as totally unfeasible up against even a very viable alternative. in my next post i will detail the "elephant in the room" that caused me to change course. my point being NOT to persuade anyone here to my position but rather to just lay out in the light of day what presently resides in the the shadows.

whippersnapper wrote: but the point is most of yu folks have not even done your homework on the current science projecting a post nuke holocaust-winter world. pumpkin's extrapolations in wz were colored by their liking the road warrior movies first off as far as scavs but for all the rest that many of yu all spout as if holy scripture it IS VERY WEAK extrapolation if yu bother to do any rudimentary research on the sciences involved.

Zarel wrote: Okay, so, I'm apparently wrong in my interpretation of "post-apocalyptic". But I'm not sure I understand how I'm wrong.

++ it comes down to the extrapolated consequences of nuke winter and fallout. the presumption by the majority in the wz community is that those "post apocalyptic consequences" are monolithic and immutable for several generations of survivors and that is NOT necessarily so based on present day tech and science strongly suggesting that a reclamation to a pre-collapse earth could be undertaken and advanced within ONE generation (<20 years).... the survivors resources and compulsion to civilization (as opposed to barbarism) would perforce be driven by the essential need to re-establish a safe natural food chain and an agrarian base.

whippersnapper wrote: no offense zarel, and i do really appreciate & admire the work you are doing elsewhere, but you are obviously no artist and to speak as if you were is just plain fool-hardy.

Zarel wrote: I freely admit that. I'm no artist - I'm an interfacer and a designer. I'm good at making things have high usability, although I code, too, since it's easier than getting people to code for me. My art sucks - the most I've gotten is something like third place in a statewide middle-school-level art competition. I try to guide works so that they're usable - in that structures are easily recognizable. I also make some comments that are more along the lines of "This is how I, as a user, feel" because that's the essence of interfacing. And I felt that the structure didn't look the "run-down" and "designed for functionality rather than aesthetics" feel I get from the rest of Warzone, as a user, not as an artist. Doing extrapolation, I call Pumpkin's style "post-apocalyptic", but I care more about making newer structures somewhat close to Pumpkin's original design ideas than adherence to any particular thing called "post-apocalyptic".

++ form serving function is a worthy design paradigm and powerful aesthetic within, and outside, the fine arts, imo, so i can thoroughly appreciate your position.

whippersnapper wrote: but beyond that, as far as re-creating a cohesive, quality, 21st century rts game - there is an elephant in the room so to speak, that belies that goal ever being achieved... but, even though that directly relates to this an every other upgrading effort, here is not the place or time for a strict, impartial, feasibility analysis that amounts to exposing what is in truth an exercise in whack a mole and what amounts to encouraging a state of denial in those who are not coders and cannot on their own appraise the real potential of the original source - engine (or its current transformed state) and it's very real shortfalls that amount to deal breakers as far as realizing much of what is spoken of and even begun in haphazard fashion, as a working, stable, whole.

Zarel wrote: Wait, wait, what? What's the elephant in the room? I think you're trying to say there's some sort of problem, but I can't figure out what the problem is..

++ this last, what i've dubbed "the elephant in the room", i will respond to in my next post later today because i think it should be separated from all the above for the sake of a clearer focus on the crux-pivot of this topic thread.

[Zarel]

Zarel wrote: Okay, so, I'm apparently wrong in my interpretation of "post-apocalyptic". But I'm not sure I understand how I'm wrong.

++ it comes down to the extrapolated consequences of nuke winter and fallout. the presumption by the majority in the wz community is that those "post apocalyptic consequences" are monolithic and immutable for several generations of survivors and that is NOT necessarily so based on present day tech and science strongly suggesting that a reclamation to a pre-collapse earth could be undertaken and advanced within ONE generation (<20 years).... the survivors resources and compulsion to civilization (as opposed to barbarism) would perforce be driven by the essential need to re-establish a safe natural food chain and an agrarian base.

I'm still confused. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Warzone is set right after the Project is formed (2099), 15 years after the Collapse (2085). There haven't been several generations of survivors, and survivors are still constantly being attacked by scavengers, the New Paradigm, etc. The "compulsion to civilization" happens after the game ends - you can even see it in the end-of-game FMV, after you defeat Nexus, 'cause that's when the Project is no longer fighting with other armies for survival, and can actually civilize.

[whippersnapper]

less than one generation is sufficient (<20 years) for deliberate transformation programs to take effect across the natural landscape. pumpkin does not touch upon this at all in their official back story timeline - their story telling premises are sketchy at best and therefore i do not feel sanctifying them is in order but rather filling in the major gaps and addressing the inconsistencies and contradictions is the calling from my point of view. For example... where in the original campaign is there any mention or mission that truly raises the on the ground consequences of a post nuke holocaust-apocalypse - visual landscape or game play ? Absolutely none. the factions are underground enclaves before, during and after the golbal infrastructure collapse. reclamation protocols could commence right after the collapse. scavs are the ones fighting over cans of dog-food on the surface in the immediate aftermath of the collapse since they survived outside any of the underground enclaves. the faction enclaves are prepared for post collapse efforts to counter the consequences of nuke winter-fall out.

i think pumpkin's story vision in the original campaign, with all it's warts, inconsistencies, contradictions and short-comings, can stand as is. but i do not feel bound to those weak aspects therefore feel free to redress in my recreation and advancement efforts. to be honest, i take what is solid, good and promising.... and the rest that falls short, i toss.

bbl8r with "elephant" post.

[whippersnapper]

here is something else to consider from the point of view of what you guys are doing.

you have a time snap shot in the original campaign.... however you choose to interpret it based on pumpkins FMVs and sketchy time line back story.

does that mean that every skirmish and mp game has to be locked into that time snap-shot ? cannot skirmish and mp games advance in time from the campaign temporal snap shot, in other words ?

[whippersnapper]

++++++++++++++++


i used the phrase "whack-a-mole" (which is a carnival game) to describe 2 aspects of development.

1 aspect of development which goes back to the very beginning, that is, with all development since source liberation - namely, making wz cross-platform, initiating "fixes & cleanup". i group these because they yield a cycle of on going consequences. on going to this day. as you address one issue or bug related to these actions an other bug or issue becomes manifest that needs address... and on and on - whack-a-mole.

the 2nd aspect that causes"'whack-a-mole" dev is tied to advances or upgrades - in gfx, game play, ui, etc. this area is even more serious and where the "elephant' resides in shadow.

there are 3 game modes - campaign, skirmish and mp - dev "whack-a-mole" arises in all 3 but with different feasibility end-games dev-wise.. wz game-source is OLD and was severely compromised by PSX dev such that it is one huge "MacGyver" (See HERE) held together (pretty ok in v.1.10) by "bailing wire and duct-tape", metaphorically speaking - a house of cards.. you can advance gfx, game play and gui with lots of work and sorta get it working acceptably in 2 of the 3 game modes. and as yu get 2 of those 3 game modes sorta working your 3rd game mode will always break. there are reasons for that but i do not think going into the details of why is necessary here and now but what i will tell you of the pro feasibility analysis is that to address will require thousands of lines of new code that would take 2 good coders investing a solid 1 to 2 hours day, 5 days a week, a year to write..... then there is all the play testing to account for. 2 questions arise - how likely is that to happen ? and - is it viable when weighed against other alternatives if your goal is to re-create "a cohesive, quality, 21st century rts game - a working, stable, whole".?.i have certainly not abandoned the fun of learning or what makes wz the game special to me. but my goal is also a cohesive, quality,,21st century rts game - a working, stable, whole. for me this last goal is such a remote possibility, with so many downsides and dead-ends, utilizing the wz source that the very viable alternative made more sense by way of any development road map metric that was meaningful to me - esp robust MP mode wherein a persistent, growing, future is contingent upon.... so i have proceeded along this alternate route which also, for sure, honors what i love about wz the game.

my purpose-goal is what it is and in no way are my comments intended to persuade anyone of anything different than what they are at present engaged in. i also respect all the work being done in this community and learn from and am inspired by all of these creative, first class, efforts. now that i have expressed my position honestly, i am quite happy to set it aside and never mention it again. as long as i give input in this neighborhood i will keep it strictly focused on the specific works being done here without reference to anything else.

[Olrox]

I'm going to invest my future in game modelling. Well, but I've decided that it isn't time to start already, I've got university right now, and it takes a lot more time than the 6 and a half hours I spend inside the classrom, so I wouldn't get to focus my work into neither activities if I were to start right now. But I have my free time to spend, and I divide it carefully between entertainment and entertainment.

that's because I entertain myself modelling, I don't think it's boring, not at all, otherwise I wouldn't be doing models for free all the time. And modelling things for Warzone 2100 is a good experience, as I'll have to do much more likely work in my whole life! That experience, that aggrandizement, that pleasure have no price for me, so I'll never stop it. Even if I'll not get recognized for my work in wz2100, it would've been worth the time, for the experience.
I really don't think warzone 2100 can put up against nowadays RTS's, but I love it so much that I don't care about it. And it is for that "love" for warzone that I spend whole nights thinking about my models, and feel happy for that.
I also don't expect warzone 2100 to turn into anything much greater than it is right now, so I don't pretend to spend my whole free time on it, during my whole life, but as far as I can do it, I'll do it.

[whippersnapper]

Olrox: I can relate to all you have expressed and have nothing but absolute respect for it.

i call it "for love of the game" and for as many games as i have played and really liked,
wz 2100 is the ONLY game that ever inspired me to create in a game world. no other
game has ever compelled me to wanna bring something new and tangible to the table,
in addition to simply enjoying the game play.

over time, the sheer joy and fun of creating was outweighed by frustrations. at the same
time i did not want to abandon my efforts or wz.

so, without getting into details, i found a happy place for realizing all my wz dreams. it
is so satisfying that even though i never wanted to get any closer to code work than writing
campaign scripts i am, earnestly and with a sense of genuine pleasure, learning to code. though
much work lies ahead, i'm further along than ever before in the goals that matter most to me.

long and short of it - as long as you enjoy what you are doing, and learning to boot at the same time,
nothing else matters as much...

[Deltaflyer]

I have always been interested in making games ever since I got my first console (PS1) I have downloaded the free versions of blender, 3ds max and all thme but the tutorials are too damn confusing! I'm not gonna give up because after seeing what is possible on here alone, I thought that I'm gonna give it another go. Thanks Olrox for rekindiling my love of messing around in blender without realising it

[Olrox]

I have always been interested in making games ever since I got my first console (PS1) I have downloaded the free versions of blender, 3ds max and all thme but the tutorials are too damn confusing! I'm not gonna give up because after seeing what is possible on here alone, I thought that I'm gonna give it another go. Thanks Olrox for rekindiling my love of messing around in blender without realising it

You're welcome

[whippersnapper]

one thing i will add about 3d artistry in the game world. there are many that can create
the initial 3d model. it is a very fun stage of the process and also the easiest, relatively speaking.
where the greatest challenge (and work) lies, is in textureing. most who call themselves 3d artist
cannot texture to save their lives. very often they expect others to texture their models. i would
say if you wanna call your shots as an amateur or professional, work on your texture skills. be the
complete package. it's actually quite rare in artists of the fan game world.

[Olrox]

Yeah, it's true, but I really think that strange. I can texturize without too much problems, I'm messing with 3DSMax and Photoshop, and both can bring awesome, near perfect models, if known how to do it. Unfortunately, my skills in 3DSMax aren't quite professional, started using it at April, and I've gone all the way up to rigging, but in a program like that (a thousand thousands of functions), just trying until you get to do what you want is a very, very harsh way to go. But I really think most of my weak points are in actual coding, but I have a programmer to help me. What I'm doing right now, untexturized models, will only last up to december's early days. After that, I bet we can see one model completely in-game every 3 days, if I manage to do the raw 3D of every structure until then. I can do it.
But messing with texture maps is no problem at all, and it's fast to do. I'm accounting for 3 days each model only to give an occasional surplus of lazyness insurance. Let's only hope I won't need to use that last one too much

[whippersnapper]

i thought you were an exception to the rule and could do good texture work. i'm glad your
working with a coder too, that makes a diff with WZ. btw, Truespace v.7.6 is totally free these
days for the whole pkg inc the tutorials - great prog if yu don't wanna spend 5k on Maya, plus some
neat community venues, yu could make a few bucks, if ya wanted. anyway, i can see you have
it worked out realistically and have good odds on your side for success and enjoyment all along the way.

[elio]

I'm going to invest my future in game modelling. Well, but I've decided that it isn't time to start already, I've got university right now, and it takes a lot more time than the 6 and a half hours I spend inside the classrom, so I wouldn't get to focus my work into neither activities if I were to start right now. But I have my free time to spend, and I divide it carefully between entertainment and entertainment.

that's because I entertain myself modelling, I don't think it's boring, not at all, otherwise I wouldn't be doing models for free all the time. And modelling things for Warzone 2100 is a good experience, as I'll have to do much more likely work in my whole life! That experience, that aggrandizement, that pleasure have no price for me, so I'll never stop it. Even if I'll not get recognized for my work in wz2100, it would've been worth the time, for the experience.
I really don't think warzone 2100 can put up against nowadays RTS's, but I love it so much that I don't care about it. And it is for that "love" for warzone that I spend whole nights thinking about my models, and feel happy for that.
I also don't expect warzone 2100 to turn into anything much greater than it is right now, so I don't pretend to spend my whole free time on it, during my whole life, but as far as I can do it, I'll do it.

i would say exactly the same, thanks

[Zarel]

There is, by the way, absolutely no reason why Warzone needs to stay as unpopular as it is now; many of my friends who've tried Warzone say it's as good as or better than StarCraft. Now, that might be a bit of a stretch, but we do have a deeper tech tree and the ability to select more than three units at a time (that's an exaggeration, if you were thinking of correcting me - you can only select two units at once in StarCraft). With a bit more balancing work and pinning down the last few bugs (in AI and netcode specifically), I have a feeling Warzone will eventually have its place.

[whippersnapper]

There is, by the way, absolutely no reason why Warzone needs to stay as unpopular as it is now; many of my friends who've tried Warzone say it's as good as or better than StarCraft. Now, that might be a bit of a stretch, but we do have a deeper tech tree and the ability to select more than three units at a time (that's an exaggeration, if you were thinking of correcting me - you can only select two units at once in StarCraft). With a bit more balancing work and pinning down the last few bugs (in AI and netcode specifically), I have a feeling Warzone will eventually have its place.

could be. excellent wz a.i.s already exist, just not being used here. the balancing your doing is also key. the netcode, without a doubt is absolutely fundamental to any such possible future.

starcraft - it's a singular case that has stuff going for it that wz is unlikely to ever have. like - battle.net (& trust in), genuine factions, many mp game modes, ranking tournaments where peeps can make good money as players AND, the gambling that goes on along the "side-lines"... oh boy, that too is a huge part of its popularity, esp in s. korea.

so let's reprise - what would it take, first off, to bring wz netcode and mp anywhere close to the state of starcraft mp and battle.net ?

it's possible. almost anything is. but break it down to man-hours of work and feasibility.