A few ideas

[Zarel]

I've been trying to rebalance Warzone to make it more playable, by making small tweaks. But there are a few large changes I'm thinking about, so I want to run those ideas past the community first.

Notice that none of these changes require changes in the game engine - they are all things that could be implemented just by changing weapons.txt, prresearch.txt, and research.txt (or by creating a mod).


1. Stop Everything from Requiring Machinegun

When I felt like changing the early game research tree, I first thought of one thing: Stop making machinegun technologies required for completely unrelated technologies. When I started playing with the research tree, I realized something: By changing exactly two things, I could make the research tree change very drastically:

1. Change Sensor Tower from requiring Machinegun Guard Tower and Sensor Turret to just requiring Sensor Turret.
2. Change Cyborg Factory from requiring Hardened MG Bullets to requiring Fuel Injection Engine (which is also at depth 2 of the tree, so it shouldn't affect balance much).

How does this change the tech tree? Compare the "Engineering" and "Sensor Turret" sections of the new tech tree with the old one:

http://wzguide.co.cc/new/r/tech-tree
http://wzguide.co.cc/r/tech-tree

I think this makes it better, because this way, more technologies completely unrelated to weapons no longer require weapon upgrades to be researched. This will mainly affect early game balance, and anyone who starts at anything except T1 No Bases should be unaffected. But for T1 No Bases, I think this would make it better.


2. Burst weapons.

Right now, there are only two kinds of weapons:

1. Weapons that are "constantly" firing (machinegun, mini-pod, assault cannon, etc...)
2. Weapons that have a long reload time, and then either fire once or have a very short salvo fire (all other weapons)

I'm thinking about adding a third kind of weapon - a burst weapon. This weapon would be "constantly" firing for a moderately long time, but then reload for a similarly long time. The closest Warzone gets is the mini-rocket artillery, but even then, the fire time is very short compared to the reload time.

The idea is that it makes the weapon seem stronger, since it's stronger while it's bursting, while not being so powerful as to be game-breaking because of the reload period. It's also not the same as having a long reload time, which also makes the weapon seem weak. With bursting, half the time, you still are firing, so it feels more like a constant-fire weapon.

Current game weapons that could be transformed and renamed into burst weapons: "Burst Gun" instead of "Twin Assault Gun" and "Burst Cannon" instead of "Twin Assault Cannon." "Pulse Laser" could also work - think of 'bursts' as 'pulses'. "Stormbringer."


3. Variable Research

Right now, to research a technology, you need to have researched all of its prerequisites. However, there's nothing in the game engine that requires this - it's perfectly possible to have a technology that requires, say, any one of three different topics as its prerequisites. For instance, we could make it so Resistance Circuits can be researched if the player has researched Advanced Engineering or Nexus Link Turret, but not necessarily both.

One of the benefits of doing this is that it could give multiple paths to getting a late-game technology. Right now, I don't think anyone actually gets, say, EMP Cannon, because of the number of prerequisites on the thing.


4. Pruning the research tree

Many later game technologies require far-earlier technologies. For instance, Wide Spectrum Sensor Tower requires Wide Spectrum Sensor, CB Tower, VTOL Tower, VTOL CB Tower, NSRB, and Hard Sensor Tower. All of these are required by Wide Spectrum Sensor anyway, so it doesn't actually add much, except where Wide Spectrum Sensor was gained from an artifact. There are many similar cases.

But here's the thing! Right now, artifacts are completely useless. If there were less of these types of mostly-useless requirements, someone who got an artifact would gain more of an advantage. There could be a game option to turn off artifacts, so people who don't want this type of functionality wouldn't be affected.

[fisk0]

I think I agree with all your points. I too was thinking of some kind of burst fire weapons (i tried looking through the weapon txt's too test some of the stuff myself, but couldn't figure the files out even with the help of the manual), I'm not sure 'burst cannon' makes sense, unless it's a multiturreted thing that only fires one turret at a time (but it could be really cool to have a cannon counterpart to the pepperpot, cyclone or hellstorm - a 3, 4 or 5 turreted 'rotating cannon', I guess it might be too overpowered, but just the visual of it .. wow) some rocket weapons would make sense as burst fire weapons, and machineguns as well (though they might get too weak if they are not continous fire anymore). Lasers or particle cannons/gauss guns could make sense as burst fire weapons as well (though lasers shouldn't fire projectiles as they do now, lasers are instant hit weapons).

As for clearing up the tech tree, I'm all for it, for now it doesn't make sense to me, say I go for better cannons and VTOL's early on, I don't care about machinegun towers since bunkers do the work better, after I while I think I have upgraded everything but can't get the sensors. I have this worthless structure still unresearched, and researches it just for the sake of it - and voila, I get the other stuff. Maybe the tech tree could be more separated into weapons and non-weapons research, so that a sensor or non-hardpoint building wouldn't require a weapon to be researched except in some special cases.

[Rman Virgil]

------------------->

* Agree with your reasoning and goals.

* But as always - the proof is in the pudding; extensive MP play-testing with all humans.

- RV

[Zi-Chan]

though lasers shouldn't fire projectiles as they do now, lasers are instant hit weapons.

Right. This is one extremly unlogically Thing at Warzone. What is Laser? Light. How fast does Light move? 1.079.252.848,8 Kilometers per Hour (299.792,458 Kilometers per Second). Light needs 1.2 Seconds from the Earth to the Moon. So how can there be a Fire Time? At the Moment, the Warzone2100-Lasers are nothing more than Particle-Canons like the Gauss Canon. I would really like a Burst Weapon, which loads and then shoots a constant Beam of Energy for some Seconds. Like those huge Spider-Units at Supreme Commander. And i would love Laser Weapons shooting constant Laser Beams without Loading Time. They should be weaker than the Burst ones though.

I totally agree with all other Points too. [Super Heavy Grey Cells turned on] The Research Tree should split up in several Trees. Weapons, Base Structures, Sensors, ect.. The requirements in it are just because of the Campaign and its order of Researches. Many of them are sensible, e.g. Heavy Machine Gun requires Machine Gun, but why does it require Twin Machine Gun? It's nothing more than a bigger Single Machine Gun. Many of the Requirements are senseless in Skirmish-Games. Why do Sensors require Machine Gun? It just makes no Sense.

And as said in other Threads: Every Tower and Bunker should be designable and deletable just like Units. Would massively reduce the Tech Tree, which has many Benefits, and downsize the Building Menu (you delete, what you don't need), which would make the Game MUCH more user-friendly. You would only have to research a Tower and/or a Bunker and the Weapons. This way you could implement different researchable Versions of Towers and Bunkers and improve them this way too and not only by researching Hardcrete Materials (which improves Walls and Towers) and Structure Materials (which improves Bunkers).
I suggest Tower and Bunker-Versions like at the Tank Bodies: Light, Medium, Heavy and Super Heavy. Light Towers are like the first Metal MG-GuardTower, Medium Towers are those thin ones NEXUS-Link uses, Heavy Towers are the big ones. And the Fortresses are then just the Super Heavy Versions of the Tower. This way you could put e.g. Sensors on heavy Towers, which makes them more resistant (recommended from me, they are too easy to destroy). Light Bunkers are the ones Scavengers use.
By the way: Bunker is the wrong Word for those Thingies with Weapons. Those are Emplacements. I find, there should be a new Structure, called Bunker. Units drive in, are then under the Earth and being protected from Units and a Laser Beam, as long as the Bunker remains. How much Damage it can take, depends on your and your Enemy's Researches. The Laser Satellites should be improved by Researches too, like every other Weapon does. So a Super Heavy Bunker could survive an incomplete researched Laser Beam. But nothing should survive a completely researched Laser Beam (Damage 1.000.000 or more), it would unbalance the Game, because the Laser Satellites need 8 Minutes to load, so a 100% Chance of Success should be given when completely researched.
Before i forget: Why does the first MG-GuardTower have a Heavy Machine Gun, before the Heavy Machine Gun is researched? Senseless. Make Towers and Bunkers designable like Units - solves this and other Problems and Senslessnesses, makes Warzone much more user-friendly and gives it more Deepness of Gaming Experience. Though the whole Campaign Missions have to be changed, because of the Artifacts.

Towers are useless, since the Bunkers are harder to destroy. That's right, so i would say: Give the Towers a higher Range - the Weapons are higher on them, it would be just logically having them a higher Range (both Weapons and Sensors).

[Super Heavy Grey Cells turned off].. Huuu.. Im hungry.

[Zarel]

Right. This is one extremly unlogically Thing at Warzone. What is Laser? Light. How fast does Light move? 1.079.252.848,8 Kilometers per Hour (299.792,458 Kilometers per Second). Light needs 1.2 Seconds from the Earth to the Moon. So how can there be a Fire Time? At the Moment, the Warzone2100-Lasers are nothing more than Particle-Canons like the Gauss Canon. I would really like a Burst Weapon, which loads and then shoots a constant Beam of Energy for some Seconds. Like those huge Spider-Units at Supreme Commander. And i would love Laser Weapons shooting constant Laser Beams without Loading Time. They should be weaker than the Burst ones though.

I agree, too. 1.11/1.12 implemented some lasers correctly (Command turret, NEXUS link, and Stormbringer). They did it by removing the projectile PIE, making the firing PIE a straight line that points out, and setting projectile velocity to -1.

It had a strange side effect of making Stormbringer damage itself each time it fired, though. Probably has to do with projectile velocity -1.

My rebalance sets laser velocity to 5000, so at least it's faster than any other weapon.

The Research Tree should split up in several Trees. Weapons, Base Structures, Sensors, ect.. The requirements in it are just because of the Campaign and its order of Researches. Many of them are sensible, e.g. Heavy Machine Gun requires Machine Gun, but why does it require Twin Machine Gun? It's nothing more than a bigger Single Machine Gun. Many of the Requirements are senseless in Skirmish-Games. Why do Sensors require Machine Gun? It just makes no Sense.

Yep, that's the kind of thing I'm changing. Not too much, though.

By the way: Bunker is the wrong Word for those Thingies with Weapons. Those are Emplacements. I find, there should be a new Structure, called Bunker. Units drive in, are then under the Earth and being protected from Units and a Laser Beam, as long as the Bunker remains. How much Damage it can take, depends on your and your Enemy's Researches. The Laser Satellites should be improved by Researches too, like every other Weapon does. So a Super Heavy Bunker could survive an incomplete researched Laser Beam. But nothing should survive a completely researched Laser Beam (Damage 1.000.000 or more), it would unbalance the Game, because the Laser Satellites need 8 Minutes to load, so a 100% Chance of Success should be given when completely researched.

The machinegun bunkers are actual bunkers. The other weapon bunkers are also "bunkers", in the sense that only the weapon sticks out, the other parts are hidden underground. This is why it makes sense that it takes less damage from most weapons, but more damage from flamers.

Before i forget: Why does the first MG-GuardTower have a Heavy Machine Gun, before the Heavy Machine Gun is researched? Senseless. Make Towers and Bunkers designable like Units - solves this and other Problems and Senslessnesses, makes Warzone much more user-friendly and gives it more Deepness of Gaming Experience. Though the whole Campaign Missions have to be changed, because of the Artifacts.

It's a heavy machinegun because defense in the early game should be better than attack. The bunker machinegun and bunker rotary machinegun are stronger than the non-bunker versions, too.

Towers are useless, since the Bunkers are harder to destroy. That's right, so i would say: Give the Towers a higher Range - the Weapons are higher on them, it would be just logically having them a higher Range (both Weapons and Sensors).

Have you ever tried attacking towers with flamers, compared to bunkers with flamers?

Granted, that's pretty much the only case towers have better defense than bunkers. :/

Towers are useful if you want to put them behind walls. I think weapons have elevation bonuses, too.

[Kreuvf]

First of all: I like and support all of your ideas.

1. Stop Everything from Requiring Machinegun

Perhaps having several different starting weapons (one rocket-type, one fast fire type and one cannon type) would be even better as specialisation could start with the first research topic. Combined with idea #3 this would add some interesting twists to the game.

2. Burst weapons.

Only problem that I can see here is the translation ;)

4. Pruning the research tree

I'd prune all those MkX researches and combine them into one single research topic with a higher cost and longer research time, of course. But don't know how this would work out...

There could be a game option to turn off artifacts, so people who don't want this type of functionality wouldn't be affected.

Agreed! And being able to turn off the oil drums would be cool as well.

[doom3r]

There could be a game option to turn off artifacts

It just looks like the Artifacts system is pretty useless in multiplayer, as you are almost every time going to unlock a research item you already have.

1. Stop Everything from Requiring Machinegun

The fact you need MG to go on with researches had been put in the game, IMO, because the Project's priority is to get some weaponery before advancing in other research types. So I'd say, let's leave it as is.

Zarel wrote:
2. Burst weapons.

Only problem that I can see here is the translation

Naah, that's not really a problem!

3. Variable Research

I'd say I agree with this

[Zarel]

The fact you need MG to go on with researches had been put in the game, IMO, because the Project's priority is to get some weaponery before advancing in other research types. So I'd say, let's leave it as is.

Hey, the Project's priority isn't your priority. We're talking about multiplayer, not the single-player campaign.

[doom3r]

Yeah that's for sure but you still are a faction at war in the game. The first thing every faction would logically research would be weaponery in a warzone, if they didn't have anything.
Especially if your enemies are in your same area, every base would at least require a defense system, or that would not be a military base. right?
I guess manacing the others with a sensor turret saying it's the ultimate weapon is not the best idea! xD

[Deus Siddis]

Yeah that's for sure but you still are a faction at war in the game. The first thing every faction would logically research would be weaponery in a warzone, if they didn't have anything.
Especially if your enemies are in your same area, every base would at least require a defense system, or that would not be a military base. right?
I guess manacing the others with a sensor turret saying it's the ultimate weapon is not the best idea! xD

I think what people mean is you start with the most basic of each type of weapon, instead of just the machine gun. And then the basic weapon type tech trees can be and are separate, as they should be.

[Zarel]

Yeah that's for sure but you still are a faction at war in the game. The first thing every faction would logically research would be weaponery in a warzone, if they didn't have anything.
Especially if your enemies are in your same area, every base would at least require a defense system, or that would not be a military base. right?
I guess manacing the others with a sensor turret saying it's the ultimate weapon is not the best idea! xD

See, that's just biased thinking. First thing I'd research would be defense, then hope to break through to more advanced weaponry before I got attacked. Skip the basic weapons entirely. Risky if others plan on rushing you early on, but gives you an advantage if they don't. And that's the kind of diverse strategy an RTS should allow.

I mean, after my rebalance, there are two weapon trees that don't require machinegun: mini-rockets/rockets/missiles, and lasers. Granted, you're not gonna get lasers before you get attacked, but if you're rushing for rockets, why not?

[Zi-Chan]

I think weapons have elevation bonuses, too.

I never noticed that!?

Only problem that I can see here is the translation

Strahlenwaffe could be a general german Description. Strahlen (Beams) are constant.

I think what people mean is you start with the most basic of each type of weapon, instead of just the machine gun. And then the basic weapon type tech trees can be and are separate, as they should be.

I recommend that, it would be just logically. Rockets don't need MachineGuns. At least not for the Weapon itself (maybe it could need the Chain Gun Upgrades like the Canons - depends on how the Rockets fire).

Yeah that's for sure but you still are a faction at war in the game.

Nowhere is said, which Faction you play at Multiplayer, so this is no Argument IMO. This should give you the Ability to do, what you want. I wouldn't care about the Faction i play - i play as the Me, Myself and I-Faction

Especially if your enemies are in your same area, every base would at least require a defense system, or that would not be a military base. right?

Walls are a Defense System.

The fact you need MG to go on with researches had been put in the game, IMO, because the Project's priority is to get some weaponery before advancing in other research types. So I'd say, let's leave it as is.

Not everyone researches Weapons first, like Zarel says, and i say: Let the Player decide, what he/she wants to research first, so i am for seperate Research Trees. It's user-friendly and more logically. Oh and i am for seperate Structure Building Categories. If you want to build something, you always have to scroll through any other Structure - this is Time Wasting after having researched so many Things, you later don't need anymore. Those Categories should be just the same like the Research Trees: Base Structures, Weaponry, Defense, Sensors, ect. If you want to build a Weapon-Tower, you then don't have to scroll through EVERY other Structure and search for it. Just Time Wasting.
What i find good too, is the Idea of Variable Research - this would offer the Possibility for more than one Way to research through to a certain Item. It's always the same with the research, you always need the same Things, it's boring... There should be different Ways to reach something. This way the Artifacts could stay, too. Because THEN you can get something, you didn't research before, because the AI has chosen another Path of Researching Strategy.

And that's the kind of diverse strategy an RTS should allow.

This is what i'm about - it's about allowing. The Player should decide which Strategy he/she wants to use, not the Game, as it does at the Moment, because of the Requirements.

[ClockWork]

Like those huge Spider-Units at Supreme Commander.

monkey lords rule! xD

Anyway, what about tweaking the Cybogs to be cheaper. I could make a viper wheels machine gun, and it’s cost would be very close to it’s Cyborg counter part. I just think that a unit that is smaller in both body, and weapon size, should require less materials to make, thus making it cheaper. Cyborgs after all, could be the choice unit for players that don’t have an oil derrick dominance over a map.

Then you have the Cyborg flamers. Tough little guys, they can stay the same. But I suppose if there is a Cyborg flamer threat, then you could just build anti-Cyborg defenses.

2. Burst weapons.

In a sense, it would be similar to an automatic shotgun. You would fire some eight rounds in quick succession, but then reload it after a while. That would make good for some dedicated harassing units. I like it.

[doom3r]

Nowhere is said, which Faction you play at Multiplayer, so this is no Argument IMO. This should give you the Ability to do, what you want. I wouldn't care about the Faction i play - i play as the Me, Myself and I-Faction

For faction I just mean "some guy who's building a base in a warzone" not a specific faction like the Project or NEXUS. To build a real base you seriously NEED weapons, then comes the rest. And i'm not talking of an in-game situation or tactic - that's how the real thing would be in a world at war. Self-defense is primary.

Not everyone researches Weapons first, like Zarel says, and i say: Let the Player decide, what he/she wants to research first, so i am for seperate Research Trees.

I guess you guys didn't get the point of what I am trying to say, maybe I didn't explain myself in a good way.

I'm saying that in reality a base placed in a warzone and in a time of war would first of all require defensive (and offensive) weapons. That's what would happen reality. This would explain the need to research mgs to unlock basic stuff in T1.

If you want to keep the game closer to reality, then a base should start developing weapons before anything else.
Hope I explained better this time

[Zarel]

I'm saying that in reality a base placed in a warzone and in a time of war would first of all require defensive (and offensive) weapons. That's what would happen reality. This would explain the need to research mgs to unlock basic stuff in T1.

If you want to keep the game closer to reality, then a base should start developing weapons before anything else.
Hope I explained better this time

In reality if you wanted sensor technology, you wouldn't need to research weapons technology first, regardless of whether or not it's a "good idea", which, as others said, is debatable. In reality, a base in a warzone that hasn't been discovered by enemies yet might very well try for other technology first, especially if those other technologies could lead to other weapons.

Jus' sayin'.