VTOL's: The Official Discussion Thread

[Chojun]

Warzone is a game that is entirely different from traditional RTS games (in tech-tree alone) so any sort of balancing effort wont stand up to the same methods used in said RTS games.

Finding a good balancing technique might require a paradigm shift in our thought processes on the matter (and I won't for a moment profess to know the ultimate solution)

[Rman Virgil]

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* Yep... the permutations in WZ are vast compared to other RTSs.

* Out-of-the-box thinking required - no doubt, in the way of tools and psychological disposition.

* What we are looking at is a giant step forward rather than an ultimate solution.

* Those who play CAM and Skirmish exclusively don't have the foggiest notion of what is wrong with MP.

* Those who are a good at MP because they've taken the time to figure out the best arms-race and the very finite set of winning avenues have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo because they can beat up on Newbs and brag about it - ho-hum.

* That covers the psycho-social-dynamics.

* What of the out-of-the-box tools ?

* A deep appreciation of Virtua Fighter GPMS and Von Neumann–Bernays–Gödel set theory wouldn't hurt.

- RV

[Per]

Please stay on topic, people.

Question: Do you people use VTOL strike tower, VTOL CB tower, or their equivalent turret versions?

[HolyDragoon]

The main issue seems to be (at least in MP) that any increase in body points is accompanied by a sufficient slow down to provide defensive AA enough time to remove aforementioned additional body points.

Realistically, the greatest threat to a bomber is - a fighter plane. Sure, AA will take down a few, but not as many as a good air force of your own.

If someone is attacking with VTOLs, I'd /expect/ the best counter strategy to be VTOLs of your own.

AA should be a harassment tool, not a perfect "kill any VTOL coming near me weapon before it can fire" which it sometimes feels like.

The old principle of symmetric weaponry and counter-weaponry. If you can afford the same weapons that your enemy has, you use them. else, you use something that dissuades your enemy from attacking you with that weapon.

Well, I used Vtol strike turret... quite effective in defence... if my indirect fire units and bunkers fail to rip my enemy apart in less than 5 seconds...

[Rman Virgil]

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* Sorry ... I forgot Uber Tunnel Vision rules here and all that flows therefrom.

* Carry on.

- RV

[psychopompos]

Please stay on topic, people.

Question: Do you people use VTOL strike tower, VTOL CB tower, or their equivalent turret versions?

i do, and constantly.
id go so far as to want another system, that ONLY targets enemy VTOLs, this way assuring a ready & dedicated air supremacy force over your own base.

i even experimented with trying to assign commanders to them & visa versa.
but it was a while ago.

a great way to map an enemy base & defences is to assign cheap VTOL's to VTOLCB and wait for them to fly out.
but thats me,.

unless the op want to edit the game so the bomb turrets weigh less?
extra speed could be got from that couldnt it?

[Per]

Anti-VTOL VTOLs are an attractive idea, but hard to add properly into the game. So I would like to look at simpler solutions first.

One idea I have been toying with is to reduce the number of sensor towers, to make each tower better on its own. The VTOL strike tower should perhaps have an internal CB feature, and the standard CB tower and the wide-spectrum sensor tower should perhaps combined into one tower, a more expensive ground sensor. That way you would have three sensor towers to choose from - normal (cheap), advanced (wide-spectrum), and VTOL.

When it comes to weaponry, I miss real "bombers", who can "carpet bomb" instead of circling over the target in several passes to drop all their munitions.

Another idea is to randomize the movement path slightly when under attack, so that the VTOL swerves from side to side to avoid AA bullets.

The weapons also need to be rebalanced, of course.

More ideas?

[Molotov]

Anti-VTOL VTOLs are an attractive idea, but hard to add properly into the game. So I would like to look at simpler solutions first.

As far as anti-VTOL VTOL's go, the Lancer family of weapons do great as anti-air weapons. also HMG-style weapons.

One idea I have been toying with is to reduce the number of sensor towers, to make each tower better on its own. The VTOL strike tower should perhaps have an internal CB feature, and the standard CB tower and the wide-spectrum sensor tower should perhaps combined into one tower, a more expensive ground sensor. That way you would have three sensor towers to choose from - normal (cheap), advanced (wide-spectrum), and VTOL.

Great.

When it comes to weaponry, I miss real "bombers", who can "carpet bomb" instead of circling over the target in several passes to drop all their munitions.

I've lost many a bomber to AA thanks to the ungodly amount of passes it takes to unload firebombs.

Another idea is to randomize the movement path slightly when under attack, so that the VTOL swerves from side to side to avoid AA bullets.

Excellent.

The weapons also need to be rebalanced, of course.[/quote]

As this IS WarZone 2100, this goes without saying.

[psychopompos]

The weapons also need to be rebalanced, of course.

As this IS WarZone 2100, this goes without saying.

sounds like your volunteering:p

[Deus Siddis]

Anti-VTOL VTOLs are an attractive idea, but hard to add properly into the game. So I would like to look at simpler solutions first.

Actually, it is already in the game, you just have to manually tell each friendly VTOL which enemy VTOL it should attack, which requires reflexes beyond those of your average FPS player for the smaller and faster moving targets. In fact, the AI even does it, using alot of scourge and pulse laser VTOL interceptors and fighters respectively, to attack and kill your own VTOLs during raids in the late game.

You just need to make sensor turrets recognize hostile VTOLs as targets to assign its own assigned VTOLs to, and then let the already existing VTOL-to-VTOL combat code do its work.

One idea I have been toying with is to reduce the number of sensor towers, to make each tower better on its own. The VTOL strike tower should perhaps have an internal CB feature, and the standard CB tower and the wide-spectrum sensor tower should perhaps combined into one tower, a more expensive ground sensor. That way you would have three sensor towers to choose from - normal (cheap), advanced (wide-spectrum), and VTOL.

Personally, I would prefer just one sensor with all of this functionallity. More advanced sensors would just have better range and stealth detection, not different programming.

When it comes to weaponry, I miss real "bombers", who can "carpet bomb" instead of circling over the target in several passes to drop all their munitions.

There should be carpet bombs like light conventional, shrapnel, incendiary (phosphorus, thermite, plasma) and then heavy bombs like heavy conventional, precision, bunker buster, air-fuel, tactical nuclear, matter-antimater, etc.

Another idea is to randomize the movement path slightly when under attack, so that the VTOL swerves from side to side to avoid AA bullets.

This would be an excellent idea if it was also used for the nimble ground vehicles as well, but for this to work you first need actual collision physics instead of a dice roll for hit calculation. Otherwise there is no point in maneuvering around in 3D space, as nothing is actually being simulated in 3D space.

More ideas?

The two ideas that benefit VTOLs the most ones that are not at all exclusive to VTOLs:

1) Newtonian Physics and 3D collision

2) Multiple Weapon Hardpoints Per Turret

[Kreuvf]

This would be an excellent idea if it was also used for the nimble ground vehicles as well, but for this to work you first need actual collision physics instead of a dice roll for hit calculation. Otherwise there is no point in maneuvering around in 3D space, as nothing is actually being simulated in 3D space.

Highlighting by me.

The upcoming 2.1 (and the current beta versions as well) does make use of collision detection for determining if a target has been hit or not.

See Special interview #1: Warzone 2100 2.1 - answer to third and fourth question.

[NucNut]

Well..... ilove VTOLs, 'nuf said.

Unfortunately ive never played online mp or even lan mp (very hard to find willing volunteers)

Anyway... i ususally make some bug vtol cannon vtols and set them up in defensive patrol orbits when the map is open, say, the great rift 4 player map. If its closed in i start to use the VTOL strike sensors for defensive purposes.

I generally try to form groups with a specific function rather than just spamming stuff.

Say, Bug vtols for inital strategic strike, followed in by the heavies to mop up the survivors.

I Have occasionally included a Close in support VTOL in a commander group, and that seems to work pretty well.

and for AA duties, you cant beat the mobile units. Putting a group of medium bodied halftracked units (2 AA chaingun, a WSS, repair unit and a SAM launcher be it minipod or a proper sam) works well for point defence, and a few times even the quadmg aa really shines when its stuck on wheels.

Finally, if i need an extra punch, i try to flank the target with a transporter disgorging a cyborg squad round back. But i usually dont use the borgs so.... yeah.

Anyway this is only on single player of course, cant wait until i join a mp wz game

[Alpha93]

Heavy Bombers?v2.1 allows two turrets.HEAP Bomb Bay Vengeance Vtol,or maybe Dragon or Vyvern then fell the power of a super heavy bomber(I'd like to have a B2 heavy bomber )