build from scratch (was:GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc)

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ChristianKl
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build from scratch (was:GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc)

Post by ChristianKl »

When it comes to building a game from scratch I would suggest, that you allow players to script a lot. If you allow player to run scripts while in the game, a lot of players will write small AI scripts.

That means that you only need to implement elementary actions such as move in a straight line and shoot a shoot target X yourself. All actions that are more complex actions can be dealt with by user defined scripts. You don't have to write them as the game developer. Individual players will write them and you can facilitate that players exchange the scripts with each other.

A RTS game that allows that much AI deployment might also provide a target for AI tournament from research groups that at the moment play robot soccer against each other to show the prowness of their AIs.

You could even make unit infoboxes completly customizable with scripts that users can exchange with each other.

You can allow users to use custom skins for the look of units. You can use the existing 3D models of Warzone 2100 for the first version of the game.

After a while you can take some scripts that nearly every player uses and ship them with the default version. Taking that strategy of making a lot of the game highly customizable greatly reduces the work that you need to do to develop the game. You will only have to design the plugin architecture, the physics of how units move and what units can do. It would also add an interesting aspect to the game that existing RTS's don't have.

As far as maps go I would go for automatic map generation. It will reduce scripts that are focused on specific maps and force every script to be general. It also means that you don't need a map editor.

I'm not 100% sure but it could be possible to sell some scripts/skins in a closed license. You could even run an online shop that sells scripts that other people wrote and take a 30% cut.

I think that even a very lowly featured game would be fun to play at the beginning where everyone needs to write a few scripts for themselves. It could be an interesting game for people who can code. If you get such people interested in playing your game and the feel the game needs some improvements they will also contribute to the rest of your codebase.
You are 100% correct- and I've been guilty of underestimating this sort of thing many times, ha. Taking it slow here, and moving pieces forward as I can- the first was to make sure this is even legally doable. With that out of the way, I am now concentrating on building out a roadmap and doing some art/code tests myself.
Even when it's legally possible to use the same name I would suggest that you change the name slightly. You could use Warzone 2200 or Warzone 2101 ;). That will make it easier to google your new game and allow people to talk about it.
If they are, then as long as they remain licensed under the GPL (as well any derivative works), then it should be ok. It's just like if you wrote a book based on WZ2100, the story remains GPL, but that does not mean the medium via which you display the story must be GPL.
That not clear GPL is designed to be pretty viral.
It all depends if the "story" and name (Warzone2100) are indeed GPL.
Names aren't protected by copyright but by trademark law. However if you search in the US trademark registry it doesn"t seem like there are registrations that would prevent you from using the name. http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=s ... qph8k3.1.1

*I'm no lawyer and it might still be useful to consult one.
yahodahan
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Re: GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc, build from scrat

Post by yahodahan »

ChristianKI, this is a beautiful idea, I love it! Thanks for the great input. User's creating and "upgrading" their own AI scripts would be a lot of fun. Anyone remember "DroidArena" way back in the day? ;)
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Re: GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc, build from scrat

Post by vexed »

Besides what was said about being a herculean task from 'starting from scratch', if this will be cross platform, and you want perfect sync across all the platforms you support, then it is in your best interest to nail down that design well before you start doing lots of coding. It will save you tons of time in the future, and not to mention save yourself from tons of headaches in doing this.

Oh, about the user scripting idea... I forgot where I saw that before, but, as you can imagine, this needs to be highly limited, or you will run into all sorts of issues.
/facepalm ...Grinch stole WarzoneπŸ™ˆπŸ™‰πŸ™Š contra principia negantem non est disputandum
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Re: GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc, build from scrat

Post by yahodahan »

Cross platform is the plan- I'd be crazy not to go with all the platform-love Unity allows. Mac, PC, Linux, and later mobile too.

Since all is being constructed as independant modules, the cross-platform nail-down (heh) should be greatly simplified. Bits 'n pieces can be dynamically swapped based on the platform.

Major step, and real commitment- just purchased a Pro license of Unity. Have needed to for quite some time anyway, so it isn't entirely for this project. Pushes me forward quite a bit, regardless.

Before this comes up- yes, I would very much like to work with any of the dedicated and talented developers who have done so much here already, should they be interested. Of course, I'm waiting till I have something worth showing, before getting into that. Early next year, I intend to have things just about ready.
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Rman Virgil
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Re: GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc, build from scrat

Post by Rman Virgil »

vexed wrote:....

Oh, about the user scripting idea... I forgot where I saw that before, but, as you can imagine, this needs to be highly limited, or you will run into all sorts of issues.
Garage Game's "Torque Script" was built on this premise many years ago.
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ChristianKl
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Re: GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc, build from scrat

Post by ChristianKl »

Oh, about the user scripting idea... I forgot where I saw that before, but, as you can imagine, this needs to be highly limited, or you will run into all sorts of issues.
I don't think that it has to be limited. The AI scripts can run in a process that has lower priority than the process that renders the game physics.

Basically you have one process that runs game physics and the graphical display of the terrain.

You have a second process that runs AI scripts and which can post content to the lower part of the screen to render the infobox. It could also display the minimap. The user can basically script everything in the second process but if he creates too many scripts that are running at the same time and the computer can't calculate all of them the process has lower priority so it doesn't disturb the flow of the physics simulation.

Could you mention other issues that come to your mind?
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Re: GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc, build from scrat

Post by yahodahan »

I think this would solve itself- a bad script would make the game suffer, and therefore not be used. People will naturally gravitate toward the sleekest, quickest, most responsive AI scripts.
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Re: GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc, build from scrat

Post by vexed »

If everything is to be in sync, they it must run "the same" on every machine.
If you don't limit it, then you can have some people using "fast" scripts, and others are doing stuff that takes 9000ms or longer to execute.
That will make the game have severe delays for everyone involved.
Even if you offload scripts to another process/thread, you still need to throw time constraints into it, and what happens when you have too many scripts that can't be all processed in the same frame ?
It also depends on what exactly you are trying to do with said script, and just how much you can control of the core game.
Effects would only be client side for the most part, but most everything else, that wouldn't be the case, and, could/would suffer greatly if it isn't done right, or even if it is possible at all for certain things.

I think this thread is getting way OT... perhaps a split is in order. :hmm:
/facepalm ...Grinch stole WarzoneπŸ™ˆπŸ™‰πŸ™Š contra principia negantem non est disputandum
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Re: GPL Question- May I use name/story/etc, build from scrat

Post by yahodahan »

Ha, yeah, quite off topic. Not that I really mind, but just for clarity and for new viewers to better follow either topic, a split would be good.
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Re: build from scratch (was:GPL Question- May I use name/sto

Post by Rman Virgil »

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Please forgive me if this comes across as terribly misguided, illformed, or even impertinent, but as these forums revolve around learning, in one form or another, I will ask. Am wondering, trying to understand, how this is all so very different than the long working paradigm of Torque-TorqueScript-Torque Networking, such that it is not remotely re-inventing the wheel ? :hmm:

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Re: build from scratch (was:GPL Question- May I use name/sto

Post by vexed »

Rman Virgil wrote:.

Please forgive me if this comes across as terribly misguided, illformed, or even impertinent, but as these forums revolve around learning, in one form or another, I will ask. Am wondering, trying to understand, how this is all so very different than the long working paradigm of Torque-TorqueScript-Torque Networking, such that it is not remotely re-inventing the wheel ? :hmm:

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Not sure I follow...
If the engine (torque in this case) is fully capable of exposing most things to the scripting engine, then, there isn't a issue per se.
What I was getting at is, if you have say 5 clients, and each of them is doing something different in their script, then you need a way to sync all that data together in a frame. If that doesn't happen, then you will have what WZ does (zzz symbol) and it waits for the slow poke to finish before it can start the next frame.
While it is true that you don't have to pause the game, and instead send corrective packets instead, that has the effect of 'rubber banding' things, and on a RTS it looks like crap, depending on what we are talking about.. if movement or attacking or firing at something, then it is ugly. If it is particles, then.. meh for the most part.
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Re: build from scratch (was:GPL Question- May I use name/sto

Post by Rman Virgil »

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Thanks vexed for explaining. I think I understand what your getting at. :hmm:

In the Torque Client-Server universe, I believe it falls within "Data Blocks and Networking":

http://docs.garagegames.com/torque-3d/o ... rking.html

But, I may not be groking all of it and missing the mark. If so, I appologize in advance. :3
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