split from "unbelievable slowly"
MSVC2k5E is free (as in beer)...
MSVC vs. others
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DevUrandom
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MSVC vs. others
Last edited by DevUrandom on 26 Dec 2007, 22:49, edited 1 time in total.
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OvermindDL1
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MSVC vs. others
Correct, VS2k3 does not support C99 syntax (which is odd considering it came out afterwards, gotta love Microsoft, well, they do make the best IDE out, if anything else was anywhere near VC++ and Visual Assist plugin, I would finally get rid of Windows except for one install for games). I already changed the code for wz2100 in my local source to C++ and used C++ versions of those to re-implement the commands (only took about twenty minutes to get it to compile clean, sans the missing files, and still have all the functionality you had before). I do have mingw installed and I do use it for some libraries, but I have found it difficult to integrate into the IDE, and compiling/debugging from VS is too tempting otherwise.
And DevUrandom, as stated, I own a license to VS2k5 Standard, so if I installed it again it would be that, not the Express version, I am too addicted to Visual Assist and the Express version does not support plugins.
Have any of you looked at the SCons build system? I use it on a few projects that I need to be specifically multi-platform from the get-go, a great replacement for make files, just requires Python to be installed (and which *nix/bsd sytems does not come with Python anymore?)
And DevUrandom, as stated, I own a license to VS2k5 Standard, so if I installed it again it would be that, not the Express version, I am too addicted to Visual Assist and the Express version does not support plugins.
Have any of you looked at the SCons build system? I use it on a few projects that I need to be specifically multi-platform from the get-go, a great replacement for make files, just requires Python to be installed (and which *nix/bsd sytems does not come with Python anymore?)
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DevUrandom
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MSVC vs. others
Yeah, forgot that you had mentioned you have MSVC2k5. I have the Pro version lying somewhere, but didn't use it since long. (Booting to Windows only very occasionaly.)
The early Windows versions of WZ were built with that (as you can see in the only devpkg which was built for it), but we had to ship the MSVCRT80 (several megs, significant when the whole thing is only 20MB big) with the installer, since it was not provided even by Windows Update and the license was somewhat dubious. In addition it didn't work very well with Win9x since those are missing MSI, I shifted more and more towards Linux and got a crosscompiler set up, so there was just one or two releases built with MSVC.
For C I found a replacement in KScope. Not an IDE, but a nice editor with code-completion (using that only seldomly, finding it mostly annoying, even in MSVC) and symbolic search (the main feature I liked MSVC for). KDevelop seems to be shaping up lately, will see what the next versions bring.
We have some wscripts for the Waf buildsystem, somewhat a successor of Scons... (Founded intially for KDE4, built to overcome the limitations in Scons they found and also being more active than the Scons devs are.) Has support for the msvc compiler, too, afaik.
Last time I tried the scripts still worked quite well... (~1/2a ago)
The early Windows versions of WZ were built with that (as you can see in the only devpkg which was built for it), but we had to ship the MSVCRT80 (several megs, significant when the whole thing is only 20MB big) with the installer, since it was not provided even by Windows Update and the license was somewhat dubious. In addition it didn't work very well with Win9x since those are missing MSI, I shifted more and more towards Linux and got a crosscompiler set up, so there was just one or two releases built with MSVC.
For C I found a replacement in KScope. Not an IDE, but a nice editor with code-completion (using that only seldomly, finding it mostly annoying, even in MSVC) and symbolic search (the main feature I liked MSVC for). KDevelop seems to be shaping up lately, will see what the next versions bring.
We have some wscripts for the Waf buildsystem, somewhat a successor of Scons... (Founded intially for KDE4, built to overcome the limitations in Scons they found and also being more active than the Scons devs are.) Has support for the msvc compiler, too, afaik.
Last time I tried the scripts still worked quite well... (~1/2a ago)
Last edited by DevUrandom on 24 Dec 2007, 12:50, edited 1 time in total.
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OvermindDL1
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MSVC vs. others
Hmm, a successor to SCons, that peaks my interest quite a bit, will look into that. And yea, SCons is a bit dead, but it worked for me earlier, too many options to set in too many weird ways though, not enough abstraction, will definitively look into Waf.
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EvilGuru
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MSVC vs. others
I have found Eclipse with the CDT a good alternative to visual studio. Amazing code completion, integrates well with the makefile build system (you do not need to make a 'project' so to speak) and with subeclipse it has SVN support. Open source too!
Although it is Java it is not that bloated, due to the fact that it uses SWT as opposed to Swing. Well worth looking into.
Regards, Freddie.
Although it is Java it is not that bloated, due to the fact that it uses SWT as opposed to Swing. Well worth looking into.
Regards, Freddie.
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OvermindDL1
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MSVC vs. others
I have Eclipse, and no, it is no alternative to VC++ and Visual Assist unless you know of some plugins for Eclipse I do not have...
Other then that, I am impressed with Eclipse and do use it on non-windows systems, but until it gets functionality akin to what I use in VA, no switch for me yet. VA, as much as I hate to admit it, really is addictive. Allows me to code so much faster.
Other then that, I am impressed with Eclipse and do use it on non-windows systems, but until it gets functionality akin to what I use in VA, no switch for me yet. VA, as much as I hate to admit it, really is addictive. Allows me to code so much faster.
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EvilGuru
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MSVC vs. others
For Java Eclipse is at a similar level, if not further. Mouse over highlighting of read/write of variables, complete refactoring, spell checking -- the lot. For C/C++ it is mainly just code completion (which is amazing to say the least) and limited refactoring (it can rename functions and variables). Might take a few more releases before it is on a par, however.OvermindDL1 wrote: I have Eclipse, and no, it is no alternative to VC++ and Visual Assist unless you know of some plugins for Eclipse I do not have...
Other then that, I am impressed with Eclipse and do use it on non-windows systems, but until it gets functionality akin to what I use in VA, no switch for me yet. VA, as much as I hate to admit it, really is addictive. Allows me to code so much faster.
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OvermindDL1
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MSVC vs. others
Visual Assist is much much more then all that, that addon is the only real reason I use VC++. It essentially keeps your code compiled in its own memory and builds a ton of things on top of that, from advanced coloring (that actually uses the AST and not just plain coloring based on what it thinks it is, but rather what it really is), to code completion, to advanced comments for functions (as well as coloring them appropriately), and still just so many other things. I have not seen any IDE for any language do as much as VA does for C++ (which is astounding considering how difficult C++ is to parse for such information).
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EvilGuru
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MSVC vs. others
Yes, Eclipse parses and compiles the code. For example, if you have the Warzone source at hand find yourself a function that makes use of a DROID * (droid.c has them everywhere) and in that function type psDroid->i and wait for the auto completion to come up. You will notice (in Eclipse anyway, VA if it does compile the code will have it too) that id is offered as a completion.
If you look at the definition for the droid structure (need to negotiate a typedef) that there is no id element, rather a few macro calls (which form the bases of Warzones OO design). Simple 'dump' code completion would not give that completion. It is one of the main reasons I uses Eclipse -- once you have experienced true code completion there really is no turning back.
Not sure about comment colouring. It does aid multi-line comment writing by if you do /* then a new line it will add ' * ' for you. However I do not think they have copied over JavaDoc highlighting (at least not yet anyway).
Eclipse may not be there yet, but it is definitely the one to look out for. I do not think any other IDE, open source or otherwise currently stands a chance.
If you look at the definition for the droid structure (need to negotiate a typedef) that there is no id element, rather a few macro calls (which form the bases of Warzones OO design). Simple 'dump' code completion would not give that completion. It is one of the main reasons I uses Eclipse -- once you have experienced true code completion there really is no turning back.
Not sure about comment colouring. It does aid multi-line comment writing by if you do /* then a new line it will add ' * ' for you. However I do not think they have copied over JavaDoc highlighting (at least not yet anyway).
Eclipse may not be there yet, but it is definitely the one to look out for. I do not think any other IDE, open source or otherwise currently stands a chance.
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OvermindDL1
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MSVC vs. others
Yes, I have been watching eclipse, and as stated, if it does get the main features that I use out of VA, I would probably dump VC++ right there.
And by code completion, there are a lot of little things, for example, VA will even deduce which one you want from similar usages before, and it does it most intelligently. I will generally do something like "myPointer." (and it will replace the dot with a -> if it is a actually a pointer or a class with an operator ->() override where all I use it the override, such as a smart pointer, I can always hit backspace and it will reconvert it back to a .) and it will pop up a list with all of the members (and on some of my things it will have hundreds), red are public functions, bold are in the main class and non-bold will be in subclasses, enum's are purple, typedefs are blue, etc... etc... and they can be rearranged by using the buttons at the bottom of the list, and the first selected one will be the member I use most often based on the circumstances of the surrounding code. It really does make programming so much faster, as stated, it is addictive.
And VA has so many other parts to it, so many hundreds of different little things it enhances; believe me, Eclipse is no where near there yet, but it is the closest.
And by code completion, there are a lot of little things, for example, VA will even deduce which one you want from similar usages before, and it does it most intelligently. I will generally do something like "myPointer." (and it will replace the dot with a -> if it is a actually a pointer or a class with an operator ->() override where all I use it the override, such as a smart pointer, I can always hit backspace and it will reconvert it back to a .) and it will pop up a list with all of the members (and on some of my things it will have hundreds), red are public functions, bold are in the main class and non-bold will be in subclasses, enum's are purple, typedefs are blue, etc... etc... and they can be rearranged by using the buttons at the bottom of the list, and the first selected one will be the member I use most often based on the circumstances of the surrounding code. It really does make programming so much faster, as stated, it is addictive.
And VA has so many other parts to it, so many hundreds of different little things it enhances; believe me, Eclipse is no where near there yet, but it is the closest.
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DevUrandom
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Buginator
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Buginator
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Re: MSVC vs. others
Dunno how I missed this before, but if you could, I would love to see what the changes you did to the code to get it to compile in C++. A diff file, or a 7zip of the source and or changes would be great!OvermindDL1 wrote: Correct, VS2k3 does not support C99 syntax (which is odd considering it came out afterwards, gotta love Microsoft, well, they do make the best IDE out, if anything else was anywhere near VC++ and Visual Assist plugin, I would finally get rid of Windows except for one install for games). I already changed the code for wz2100 in my local source to C++ and used C++ versions of those to re-implement the commands (only took about twenty minutes to get it to compile clean, sans the missing files, and still have all the functionality you had before). I do have mingw installed and I do use it for some libraries, but I have found it difficult to integrate into the IDE, and compiling/debugging from VS is too tempting otherwise.
And DevUrandom, as stated, I own a license to VS2k5 Standard, so if I installed it again it would be that, not the Express version, I am too addicted to Visual Assist and the Express version does not support plugins.
Have any of you looked at the SCons build system? I use it on a few projects that I need to be specifically multi-platform from the get-go, a great replacement for make files, just requires Python to be installed (and which *nix/bsd sytems does not come with Python anymore?)
and it ends here.
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Chojun
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Re: MSVC vs. others
At work I do development in Linux and we use a number of different IDEs for this. Most notably are vi 
Eclipse, PL/SQL developer, and some other in-house tools...
Nothing I have ever used has even compared to Visual Studio. Eclipse is close, and I prefer it for Java, but when I work in Visual Studio I find that I am able to work lightning-fast compared to the other people in my department.
Everything else out there is just playing catch-up with Visual Studio...
Eclipse, PL/SQL developer, and some other in-house tools...Nothing I have ever used has even compared to Visual Studio. Eclipse is close, and I prefer it for Java, but when I work in Visual Studio I find that I am able to work lightning-fast compared to the other people in my department.
Everything else out there is just playing catch-up with Visual Studio...
The best thing to do when your philosophies don't stand up to debate is to lock the thread and claim victory.
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OvermindDL1
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Re: MSVC vs. others
Sorry, school/work decided to slam me for a bit.
The changes I made are relatively simple, just changed the couple varidic macro's to something useful otherwise. I think there was one more change in the code somewhere, but it was simple as well.
I do have a pre-processor program that can fully preprocess the C99 syntax. If I really wanted then I could just have VS run that as the preprocessor instead of having it do it itself, easy to setup, but meh...
The changes I made are relatively simple, just changed the couple varidic macro's to something useful otherwise. I think there was one more change in the code somewhere, but it was simple as well.
I do have a pre-processor program that can fully preprocess the C99 syntax. If I really wanted then I could just have VS run that as the preprocessor instead of having it do it itself, easy to setup, but meh...