Experience system for attac units, some changes...

[gypakk]

Hello...

this night I couldn't sleep, so I thought about some improvements of the present experience system in Warzone:
http://wiki.wz2100.net/Rebalance_Propos ... nce_System

How do you think about?

[Rman Virgil]

Hello...

this night I couldn't sleep, so I thought about some improvements of the present experience system in Warzone:
http://wiki.wz2100.net/Rebalance_Propos ... nce_System

How do you think about?

* Excellent analysis & suggestions.

* Before the WZ source was liberated we discussed this in-depth to the tune of some 800 Posts @rts.net.

* I transcribed that discussion to the very first WZ 2100 Wiki in 2004 - you can find that totally absorbing read HERE: Section 1 of 6

* Sections 2 - 6 can be accessed HERE

* Most of what you'll see @ this '04-'05 WZ Wiki has been rolled-into the "WZ 2200" Project & a non-free host. (When the IP0 is released in the near future, this Project repository will go public as well.)

* A central part of the Wz 2200 Project mission is making enhanced "Experience & Rank" GPMs a bonafide reality......

* It warms the cockles of my heart to see this interest alive & kicking.

- Cheers, RV

[Kayiaxo]

I found your proposals very nice, however I believe trained tanks shouldn't be as powerfull as you mention, however they should be more powerfull then now at hero rank.

[EvilGuru]

Damage instead of Kill
To damage an enemy unit should result in experience points also. In present WZ game only the kill decides. That means, if you attack an enemy hardpoint with a group of your tanks, only that tank which made the last hit gets the experience point. The other tanks end up with nothing, although having worked as hard as that one lucky tank.

Beat you to it! The current development version has had this since mid May. It was in-fact the first piece of code I ever contributed to Warzone https://gna.org/patch/index.php?745 . While in the GUI it is still displays as Kills: 10 or whatever internally we keep it as Kills: 10.24.

Quality Factor
Killing a weak viper wheel truck needs not necessarily be rewarded whereas the destruction of a big single building like missile bastion should result in more than one experience point.
The attack value (or the production cost) of the destroyed resp. damaged unit should determine the gained experience.

I did think about this. However, decided against it in the end. Although I was planning to do it by how much HP you knocked off. However, things would quickly get out of proportion. As in the later game you would rank up a lot quicker, while it would be hard to rank up in early game.

Speed
Experience should rise faster. Now it's nearly impossible to get elite ranks in a multiplayer game. In single player mode it's very hard too. In the beginning you can make many kills with the nomerous and weak adversaries. Later you have fewer and heavily armoured enemy units while the rank steps require much more kills.
That should change. The power-of-two based promotion system should be replaced by a linear or a power-of-1.5 system

With the partial kills system you will find it a *lot* easier to rank up. If however the consensus is that it is still too hard then I will make an adjustment like that you proposed.

Effect
The effect of the experience should be increased. Well experienced units should attack with doubled or tripled effectiveness and withstand an attack at least twice as long as unexperienced units do.

We currently have this on a small scale. Experienced units take 6% less damage per experience level but that is about it. Although I do not intend for this to stay the same for long. Look at some of my other posts on the subject and give feedback!

Visibility
You should be able to see the rank of your enemy units. So you are warned, when a group of enemy elite tanks appears at your base.

I think you can already see. Well, after 10 seconds of a battle you should be able to. If your tanks are in ruins, well... you know what just hit you.

Good to see someone else who wants to fix up the system.

Regards, Freddie.

[gypakk]

Good to see someone else who wants to fix up the system.

Good to see someone who invests so much time in development!

While in the GUI it is still displays as Kills: 10 or whatever internally we keep it as Kills: 10.24.

That does not apply for single player games, does it? At present I use 2.0.8 and play the single player game (nearly through with all missions).

(...) As in the later game you would rank up a lot quicker, while it would be hard to rank up in early game.

Yes! You're right!

(...) Experienced units take 6% less damage per experience level but that is about it.

This evening I added a new chapter in WZ Wiki: http://wiki.wz2100.net/Rebalance_Propos ... nce_Levels
(Till now it shows my personal opinion only, of course.)

(...) If your tanks are in ruins, well... you know what just hit you.

Then it could be a little bit too late, I think...
I'd like the idea of getting frightened when an enemy elite force approches. That means, in this case the rank must be visible for enemy units too...

[EvilGuru]

That does not apply for single player games, does it? At present I use 2.0.8 and play the single player game (nearly through with all missions).

It is currently only present in the version which will eventually become 2.1. And yes, it will affect the single player campaign, however I do not think it will un-balance it.

Regards, Freddie.

[gypakk]

It is currently only present in the version which will eventually become 2.1.

I look forward to it!

Are there the WZ source files packed somewhere that I can download them as a single unit? Maybe as ZIP or RAR so that I can unpack them with Windows.
I'd be eager to have a look into some sources...

[Buginator]

I look forward to it!

Are there the WZ source files packed somewhere that I can download them as a single unit? Maybe as ZIP or RAR so that I can unpack them with Windows.
I'd be eager to have a look into some sources...

You can download them all with tortiseSVN for windows from http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/
Very easy program to use to pull down the latest source code.  Just point it to http://svn.gna.org/svn/warzone/trunk and that will pull down everything you need.  That includes all the data files.

I don't think there is a zip/rar of the latest code anyplace.

[gypakk]

You can download them all with tortiseSVN for windows from http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/

Now I have the source code. Thank you!

So many files... I think I undersetimated the quantity.

[Giel]

I don't think there is a zip/rar of the latest code anyplace.

Oh yes there is; we've got a daily snapshot of the code here (meaning it will be out of date 24 hours at most): http://svn.gna.org/daily/warzone-snapshot.tar.gz

[HCN-Trooper]

Autorepair should be an veteran option....and if you have rsearced the autorepair module, they veteran abillity should be doubled....and Hero´s can´t be taken over....
//Edit: Defences should have a status too....
....

[Coincident]

About the Quality Factor:
I think this is very important; to distinguish between killing some Machinegun Viper Wheels, and a Heavy Cannon Python Tracks.
That would not allow a player to get über-elite units from destroying a army of low-end vehicles from a weak computer player, for example.

I did think about this. However, decided against it in the end. Although I was planning to do it by how much HP you knocked off. However, things would quickly get out of proportion. As in the later game you would rank up a lot quicker, while it would be hard to rank up in early game.

I understand your problem, but there's a solution to that:

The experience gained should be affected by a coefficient 'Q' (for Quality), that would be proportional to the value of the killed unit, and inversely proportional to the value of the killer unit.


For example, let's assume:
LOW = Machinegun Viper Wheels, value = 100.
MID = Heavy Machinegun Cobra Half-Tracks, value = 200.
HIGH = Heavy Cannon Python Tracks, value = 400.

If LOW kills LOW (in early game), Q = 100/100 = 1. Hence the experience points would not be affected by the Quality Factor in this case.
Same thing if MID kills MID or HIGH kills HIGH (in later game).

However, if HIGH kills LOW, Q = 100/400 = 1/4. This means that the Heavy Cannon Python Tracks will only get 25% of the usual exp he would get from killing a tank of his own value.
In the same manner, if MID kills LOW, MID only gets 50% of the normal exp.


An interesting consequence to this coefficient is: what happens when LOW kills HIGH?
I'm sure you all know that having a Machinegun Viper Wheels kill a Heavy Cannon Python Tracks, this is truly a heroic (and rare) act.
The LOW unit should be heavily rewarded:

If LOW kills HIGH, Q = 400/100 = 4; LOW will win 400% of the normal exp.
If LOW kills MID, Q = 200/100 = 2; LOW will win 200% of the normal exp.



I think this might balance things out a bit, without making it hard to rank up in early game.

[suiwen]

how about we use the life point(health)  sistem

For example, let's assume:
Machinegun Viper Wheels, have life point = 100.
Heavy Cannon Python Tracks, havelife point = 10000.

and if a tank attack the Machinegun Viper Wheels the damage = exp point  (no kill)
and if a tank kill the Machinegun Viper Wheels the exp = 100 exp point  (kill)

than the rank level up with some exp like lv 1 = 300 exp point
that mean a tank must kill 3 Machinegun Viper Wheels or do 300 damage to life point Heavy Cannon Python Tracks

can be use for building or tower

sorry if my word so bad, i no good writing english

[EvilGuru]

An interesting idea (using a coefficient); however, define kill. As I could get my lancers to weaken an heavy cannon python tracks units and then send in the MG viper wheels for the slam-dunk. This would result in the wiper wheels killing it, and hence getting the experience.

Or, do you mean adapt my current system to the experience it was going to get for doing X% damage is multiplied by Q prefer being applied.

I personally quite like the second one. But it would require us to define quality, ie I need a function f(x, y) which takes two units (x = attacker, y = victim) and returns Q. Anyone feel like defining one. As there are loads of different possibilities. Price, production time, weapon type/class. Or a composite of several factors.

Regards, Freddie.

[Coincident]

Machinegun Viper Wheels, have life point = 100.
Heavy Cannon Python Tracks, havelife point = 10000.

and if a tank attack the Machinegun Viper Wheels the damage = exp point  (no kill)
and if a tank kill the Machinegun Viper Wheels the exp = 100 exp point  (kill)

The problem with that, is that in the early game all units have very low HP, and it will be very hard to rank up your units, as EvilGuru mentioned before...
You would have to relate the damage to the unit's own HP to compare the quality of both units.

But I was thinking more of a value that is not exactly the HP, because that would give a tremendous advantage to units with low HP but high attack (for example light body VTOL's with lancers).

The power cost of the unit might be a better idea.

Or, do you mean adapt my current system to the experience it was going to get for doing X% damage is multiplied by Q prefer being applied.

Yes, that's what I meant. I should have said 'damages' instead of 'kills' in my previous post.

there are loads of different possibilities. Price, production time, weapon type/class. Or a composite of several factors.

Well, since the HP, kinetic/fire armor and weapon stats can be upgraded through research, I would not chose any of those since it would change the value of the unit during the game.
Production time also depends on how much "Advanced Factory Production" I've researched, so it's a "no" too.

As far as I know, the price seems to be constant over time for the same unit (unless ofc you change it's weapon or chasis, after which it won't be the same unit). Also it reflects both the HP (body price) and the attack (weapon price) of the unit.

Any alternatives?