Iluvalar & Shadow Wolf TJ's *Commander Mods*- Need Play Data

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 06 Apr 2012, 21:26

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@ Shadow Wolf TJC: Gotcha. Tanks. ;)

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 17 Apr 2012, 23:42

Say, how have things turned out for my Two Commanders mod, or for Iluvalar's Commander mod?
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 18 Apr 2012, 00:20

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Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:Say, how have things turned out for my Two Commanders mod, or for Iluvalar's Commander mod?
I spoke to my end already.

~ From the thread - Commander Dev Halted - No MP Testing Support

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9119&p=100300#p100300
by Rman Virgil » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:54 am wrote:.

Where are we at with real Commander MP Enhancements...?

The heuristic of parsimony was exercised at the outset to determine what could be the simplist changes made to Commanders to enable them as a viable, balanced, option in MP Mode such that they could be part of any number of new winning strategies that opened up the game to greater variety and fun gameplay which was also unique to WZ in the RTS genre.

Rather quickly, thanks to Iluvalar and Shadow Wolf TJC, we have 3 such mods that fit that heuristic of parsimony which can also be expressed in the vernacular as the biggest bang for the buck - right here and now, with not an iota of pie-in-the-sky brainstorming jibber jabber (granted such brainstorming is fun but it is only useful to the extent that it translates into pursuing certain actions and determining others best set aside for the time being and abiding an evidence based protocol along the way).

The 3 of us have gone as far we can with single-handed testing.

What is needed now is MP testing & reporting to tweek the mods. The more the better. But, at the minimum, we need 2 individuals that can find a grand total of 1 hour (out of the 168 in a week) to go head to head, on-line or LAN, & provide a brief report of their experience.

For my part I have reached out side of this community for assistance in this MP testing (as I have had to many times over the last 6 years with my own experimental WZ work). My playing buds have agreed to schedule it but it won't make it into next weekends get together and will have to wait till the following gathering which looks to be some 6 weeks out. I wish we could have attended to these mods this coming weekend but we already have a full plate of testing. Many of these folk are local pro indie game devs and so the latest iterations of their efforts are the priority coming up.

So... this is where it's at, pretty much a standstill as of this moment... at least as far as I can see from the absence of any postings stating otherwise.

Having completed my assessment of all Commander proposals offered over the last 13 years (talk about time consuming), it only gets more complex and demanding development-wise, let alone including the testing component. Therefore if we cannot progress from these 3 simple mods then there is no point in investing anymore time and energy into this effort.

There it is in clear, straightforward, & blunt terms.

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vexed wrote:Pardon the interruption, but I don't really have time to read all of these topics, and I was just curious on how are all of you actually testing anyway ?
Are you doing mainly skirmish games with 1 AI ?

If that is the case, did anyone modify the AI to take advantage of the changes ?
Rman Virgil » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:54 pm wrote:
I'll let Iluvalar and Shadow Wolf TJC speak to their testing protocols.

Speaking for myself alone, the answer is as best I could I put up the mods vs AI that duped some basic linear winning MP strats & tacs in a fashion that still cannot capture good players overall dynamic flexibility, improv & creativity.

So it really only served, as far as I'm concerned, to make a tentative judgement - the mods are on viable paths. What is truly needed is human players playing against each other to continue to refine the modifications which are intended for MP gameplay and not really for SP vs Bots.....(though there is no reason that that effort cannot be pursued as worthy - it's just not our primary goal.)

Ideally we need one player using the mods and the other using proven winning strat-tacs that do NOT USE the modified commanders.

Modifying the AI to use the commander mods is not gonna help us here, IMHO.

Could be I'm missing something essential here and if that's the case then there many good WZ minds out there that will point it out, I am certain.

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by RBL-4NiK8r » 18 Apr 2012, 06:04

I will look into this later this week no test till maybe next week tho, my kids going to Camp Pendleton with his JROTC.


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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 18 Apr 2012, 09:12

RBL-4NiK8r wrote:I will look into this later this week no test till maybe next week tho, my kids going to Camp Pendleton with his JROTC.


4nE
Cool. :D Thanks 4nE. :3 Should have realized your "kid" is grown-up now. JROTC. Wow. The proud pops you must be. :)

I know you know how tough it is making changes to MP and then trying to get some good testing feedback. Somethings remain the same no matter how fracked-up they are because of it. And I understand the dynamic at play. Still one hopes. :hmm:

~ RV

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 07 May 2012, 13:23

From the looks of things, it seems as if nobody's interested in playtesting the commanders.

Anyways, while I was working on my mod, I've discovered a bug with the Command Turrets in the main game. It seems as if each Command Turret requires its own brain (in brain.txt) in order to appear in the game, and that these brains, instead of the command turrets themselves, need to be made available/obsolete as they are researched. Otherwise, they won't appear it seems. See ticket 3438 for more information.

I've quickly thrown together a new Commanders mod for the purposes of continued testing (if people are still interested). Also, while testing out my main mod, I discovered that turret HP does indeed benefit from increases in HP provided by Composite Alloys/Improved Hardcrete, so I've adjusted the Command Turrets' HP accordingly.
Two_Commanders_Mod_v3.wz
Adds a bugfix to make the new command turrets actually show up in-game. Also, toned down Command Turret HP.
(151.87 KiB) Downloaded 141 times
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 07 May 2012, 15:09

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Thanks Shadow Wolf TJC for your continued efforts. :3

The lack of interest in MP playtesting commander enhancements is perplexing indeed. In the RTS genre at large they remain a signature WZ creation all these years later whose full potential remains dormant. Perhaps it comes back to altering old habits - even with the greatest of motivations to change the challenges of the change process itself are equally great and often the path of least resistence preavails; aka, the status quo (or the Spanish expression "nada con nada" hits the nail on the head too).

I've always seen their "Brains" & Command UI as the means to more interesting, complex (as in multi-vectored) and intelligent (as in timing coordinated) in theater maneuver by way A.I. assist scripts that are player controlled through a redesigned command interface that makes use of CTA science insights. Something along these lines was done many years ago with mods to "E2150" except it was with builder units (that game had no commander units) and it worked beautifully.

Commanders are still central to my continued interest in WZ and feature prominently in my current work with hybrid WZ Machinima and 3D anim constructed FMVs.

Which reminds me - need to ask Jorzi if he finished his new commander model.

~ RV :hmm:
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