Warzone 2100 Forums

6) is not funny make update players list every second. because you forced to catch moment when enemy had made "true" unit (cyrborg in example)

i agree what early low oil game could have less randomness but not by way when you know enemy plans and timings
may be better adjust scout unit (sensor) by reducing price
also if you cannot scout by some reason don't go to risk and better make mixed army with MG to deal with cyborgs

The previous table doesn't give enough data, here's the full table.

effigy wrote:Maybe tweaking the balance a bit, could help?

Sadly this directly have to do with the progression of the research. We'd need to drasticaly slow it down so 6 minutes look like 9. But we cant change more than 10%, because it's "geneticaly" coded in the structure of the tree, not only the function stats.

The only solution i see is to double the price of all the research and half the speed of the units. I dont believe players would like that, As I say, the preview is a game changer.

Reg312 wrote: may be better adjust scout unit (sensor) by reducing price

I'm not talking about the price anyway... I'm talking about the mere time to travel.

Cyp : Stop playing with the mandelbrot fractal, and give me your estimation of the change. You turned the game in a fancy dice rolling,

My estimation of the change is that the game is 37.2% more fun, if the game includes scouting.

Reg312 wrote: 5) Randomness good because even strong player can lose
when strong pro player lost what we got:
- noob winner have fun
- pro player have fun to make revenge

hehe , I agree, it does make the game fun for newbies who don't know how well to use Unit sneak previews.

effigy wrote:Specifically, I'm experiencing issues vs. flamers. By the time I see thermite it's too late for thermal armor, and too late to build sufficient hardpoints.

And this is after you have scouted?

JDW wrote:...

effigy wrote:Specifically, I'm experiencing issues vs. flamers. By the time I see thermite it's too late for thermal armor, and too late to build sufficient hardpoints.

And this is after you have scouted?

Scouting is how I knew they were making thermite. The best example of this I have is a 4 way FFA on Pyramidal. I got one guy, the RUS in kiddie-corner to me got the other. We crossed paths once and he had flamers, so I started researching hardpoints, a few minutes later he attacked with thermite. Game Over.

The *only* way previews should be back is, if that is tied to the CRC or something along those lines, since that structure doesn't really do much, and hardly anyone builds commanders for MP games.

I would also add a range to that.

If that were done could the range be made a percentage of the map size vs a certain number of tiles/WU? We have such a variety of map sizes.... Also, it should probably be much more expensive to build (research should stay the same) to emphasize the advantage of having it/targetting it.

But then how you know what is going on in the opponent base and what he is really building before he send it to you ?

What I try to say it's that in 2.3 the players was starting to get free clues of what the other research around 6:00. The whole game balance is based on how much his chances decay from that point if he don't react quickly. It is intentional and fine tuned. to balance skill with a part of luck.

I think that if you want to enter scouting into the skill you want to reward, we need to make so that the player still have clues of what is happening at 6:00. If we change that, we also change the balance of luck vs skill in the game in some aggressive way.

Iluvalar wrote: I'm not talking about the price anyway... I'm talking about the mere time to travel.

Again we tune game for first 10 minutes, very pro players, very low oil when you cannot get second weapon
no care about 95% noobs (Noq's estimation) and other game situations (3x3, 4x4 - on 3x3 players can easy get 2 weapons in fist 10 mins)
to get satisfy 5% pro gamers we sacrifice 37.2% fun of game (by Cyp's estimation) and it is not good!
I'm exaggerating, but the point is

I think better find another way to solve that problem with slower scouting, than return unit preview
Sadly current developers position is "Don't touch balance", they even cannot fix balance "bugs" (illogicality in balance)

(hmm.. new unit "civilian" with very small size?.. )

what units except cyborg flamers can be threat when you do not know enemy plan?
is only cyb flamer strong enough in early game to kill your units fast?
may be problem only in fk cyborg flamer?

cyb machinegun = half tracks save you for enough time
cyb heavy gunner = need time to make enough gunners to kill your army
mini-rockets when you have only mg tanks? you have enough time to retreat but mini rockets cannot purshue fast because they reach very clse range and can be killed by mg wthis way

Personally, I find that it's easier to be able to counter enemy weapons than it is to counter enemy unit types. Whereas it would be expensive and time-consuming, especially later in the match, to advance research in weaponry designed to counter specific unit types, like Cyborgs or Tracks, it doesn't take all that much research to get the ability to produce Cyborgs, Tracks, or Hovercraft. If I noticed that someone was focusing on building Cannons, and I was using mostly tanks, then I'd quickly switch over to Cyborgs.

No wait, scratch that. If you wanted to switch unit types from, say, tanks to cyborgs, you'd also have to keep their armor up-to-date. Otherwise, they'd possibly fare even worse than tanks.

Still, if I had no choice but to focus on only 1 weapon line due to lack of oil, then I'd probably have to choose the surprisingly versatile, if somewhat micro-intensive, Rockets line. Although they're personally not my favorite weapon line to focus on (especially since, given their combination of high shot damage and poor rate-of-fire, Lancers, Ripple Rockets, and MRAs are prone to overkill when used in groups, thus requiring large amounts of micromanagement to use effectively), I've chosen them since, in addition to granting access to many anti-tank weapons such as Mini-Rocket Pods and Lancers, they also grant access to a few artillery weapons to choose from, most notably the Mini-Rocket Array, a short-ranged Tier 1 weapon that happens to be pretty effective against the very Cyborgs that are so resistant to anti-tank weaponry.

Also, if I had no choice but to focus on improving either vehicle or cyborg armor, then I'd probably have to choose vehicle armor. That way, I'd still be able to field a wider mix of unit types, from the slow-but-sturdy Tracks to the fast-but-fragile Hovercraft, and even VTOLs.

With this combination of Rockets and vehicle armor, I could effectively deal with a fairly wide array of threats with minimal research. From there, it's all a matter of switching production queues in order to counter what my opponent is using, HARD, and that, in itself, doesn't even take long to do compared to researching improvements to a weapon line that's better suited to dealing with the threat in question. For example, is a horde of Cyborg Flamers marching up to my base? MRA Hovercraft could be used to kite them, while MRA Emplacements hidden behind walls or Tank Traps could be effective at protecting your base (especially if you've put at least a little bit of research into improving Hardcrete durability) long enough for reinforcements (such as said MRA Hovercraft) to arrive. Is my opponent focusing on researching Machineguns and mounting them on a mix of Cyborgs and Tracked vehicles? Lancers and MRA mounted on Half-Tracks or Tracks should take care of that. (By the way, did you know that, while anti-tank weapons deal 120% damage to Tracks, they deal 90% damage towards Hovercraft? It's not a big difference, especially compared to how artillery (including the MRA) deal only 40% damage to Tracks, but 110% damage to Hovercraft, but still, it MIGHT be useful to know if you were going up against, say, an opponent that was likewise focusing on the Rockets line.)

And the best part of all of this is that, whatever research I undertake in improving Rocket power or vehicle armor, no matter whether my vehicle-weapon combinations are focusing on dealing with Machinegun Tracks or Cyborg Flamers at the time, they'll all get the benefits of the research since they're all vehicles, and they all fall within the same weapon line.

As a draw back, rockets need an extra lab to research and take the more time of T1 weapons, they have comparatively less damage for the same stats and their progression is deceiving until you hit the ROF mk2. You truck stay longer in the base and you are vulnerable against more pushy strategy (Machine guns and probably flamers). As a blind rocket researcher in 3.1 you will have not any clue that you opponent is mass producing and is coming with a rush until his units hit your base and you discover that you have lost.

When your scout will hit his base, you will only see some random machines guns, as everybody else will do to hide his other tech, except this time, there was no other tech.

But surely if you build a few walls/gates or other obstacles, then the enemy rush will have to spend some time getting round those, and your rockets can fire at them from a safer distance?

Maybe what could be done is have an option on the game set-up screen that turns the production previews on or off? That way pro players (top 5%) could turn them on and use their extreme skills as before. And noob players, like me, could have them switched off and allow a lot more randomness/chance to dictate the outcome of the game...

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:..., Lancers, Ripple Rockets, and MRAs are prone to overkill when used in groups, thus requiring large amounts of micromanagement to use effectively), ...

What do you mean? Does this seem like a large amount of micromanagement? http://wz2100.net/~cyp/recording-20120203165116.mp4

If you blindly built walls without knowing if the enemy is actually coming with flamers or mg, your rockets will be late with less units. And a cannon player could pass trough you. You just exchanged your 25% instant lose to mg to a 25% instant lose to cannon. But your opponent dont even know that, we will will more or less crash one of the strats on you and see what happen.

What you mean "noob players, like me" ? You are a good player that still hold a good chance to affect the outcome in 2.3. While in 3.1 you will need to keep constantly sending "scouts" each minutes to your opponent to keep your 10% chance to show your skill. Which mean that 90% of the games will be out of your control. Simply rolling a dice, or playing snakes and ladders would do the same.

I'm trying to make all of you understand that this preview removal is not a small shift in the game randomness, or just an idea that add scouts without changing everything else. It's a major, game changing jump from a 20% luck based game to a 90% luck base game (if you are good at scouting, otherwise it's random). I wouldnt be here if it was 30% luck. I would accept that. But 90% is changing the definition of warzone2100 from a GAME to a MOVIE.

The game mechanics were simply not design to remove 3 minutes to the player reaction time without effects.