Master balance was changed silenly, so i suggest...

[Reg312]

I've just read about new balance changes
http://developer.wz2100.net/changeset/e ... a29c523e17

I suggest:
1) Open closed discussion of balance for all people. Because some people like me want participate.
First, some changes looks awful. Second, some things working differently in master, and seem it was not taken into account by Iluvalar's auto-balance. Example: tested, thermite bombs became weaken for no reason (with same stats)
2) Do not count high oil players as noobs(!) and dont be snobbish for such players and such games
3) Make balance working both for high-oil games and low oil games
High oil games is about 80% or more of all games in lobby.

MOD NOTE:
New forum section is located here to discuss balance related changes.

viewforum.php?f=42

[NoQ]

First, some changes looks awful.

That, without specifying, is a nice way to start a discussion

[Reg312]

i'm not starting a discussion.
I suggest developers make this discussion open (which they discuss in closed thread).
I dont want discuss balance here, but i'm bothering what developers again make adjust WZ balance only for low oil games and "standard" maps

[NoQ]

Not sure if you noticed, but Panther has just got an excellent boost specifically suitable for high-oil (compared to Python, you get 20% more tanks for the same amount of time spent, with almost similar stats, even better when it comes to fire density); i won't dare using panthers on low-oil yet, but on high-oil they clearly rock now.

[Axel]

It is strange that this discussion was opened by the participant of a command tomato because changes strengthen a role of protective strategy, but I agree with your thoughts.

3) Make balance working both for high-oil games and low oil games

Hands off from balance!!
Such strong changes of balance will lead to that players passed to the master version from version 2.3.9 will be confused by such global differences and will lose interest to a series as a whole.
Russian championship has shown that there are no unequivocally advantageous strategy as well as in low oil and in hi oil games, with it means that current balance is ok.
And I dont want play in warzone with that balance

[NoQ]

Russian championship has shown that there are no unequivocally advantageous strategy as well as in low oil and in hi oil games, with it means that current balance is ok.

Oh lol. It showed pretty clearly that inferno spam is the only winning strategy in high-oil 1x1. It worked against absolutely anything our best players could have come up with.

will be confused by such global differences and will lose interest to a series as a whole.

Sure you remember the rebalance of v2.3 betas? It was a much harder change. The whole new weapon classes were introduced. I'm highly grateful for those changes. The current changes are pretty slight and subtle.

[Axel]

Oh lol. It showed pretty clearly that inferno spam is the only winning strategy in high-oil 1x1.

Results of champonship not discussed!!

[NoQ]

not discussed!!

You started it.

[Steve Jobs]

НоК, безусловно огнеметы выглядят overpowered. Но создается впечатление, что их уж очень сильно порезали. Но на это мне плевать, я огнеметами не играю.
Изменение баланса танков выглядит для меня интересным ходом, проннозировать баланс..сложновато, но сделать выводы о том, что НЕ надо теперь сломя голову ресать тяжелое тело и продюсить его, нужно.
То, что теперь укрепления имеют большую важность по отношению к танкам..Хм, Кот радуется. А на хай-ойл становится осмысленной стратегия быстрого получения бастионов.
Изменения минометов и гаубиц - идиотизм.

По поводу чемпионата. Ты победил нас в самом начале, когда ни я ни джек еще не отточили свои стратегии. Если бы играли в конце наши хай ойл игры, было бы показательнее рассуждать чья тактика сильнее. Но безусловно что кач огнеметов перспективен из-за втол бомб.

Ели хочешь, переведи на аглицкий и запость от лица Фенрира.

[NoQ]

Изменения минометов и гаубиц - идиотизм.
Changes to mortars and howitzers are stupid.

When was the last time you died to pure incendiary mortar cobra hover army in low-oil 1x1? Happened to me quite a few times; even worse in team games.

[Reg312]

i played Iluvalar's mods with his auto-balance, and it works good and playable!
but i not sure what auto-balance better than current Warzone balance.

my goal is get some responce from developers about balance changes.
I think balancers should provide some kind of article, which describes changes.
making such changes silently is not good
For example, i have my own suggestions and posted it on fofum moths ago. No one developer made responce on my suggestions, so i suspect they thought "crap flate noob" about my suggestions

[ODDity]

These should not have happened. Please lluvavlar leave master to those that actually play it, and play it properly, not this high oil crap and not stupid "new research" mod or whatever you call it.


Reg312: High oil are 80% of games in the lobby? Nice.. did you pull that out of your ass just yesterday? it's weird you know because 99% of the games I play on Master from the lobby are regular Low/Med oil games.

By all means have your High oil games.. and if things need balancing for those, have a High oil mod.. dont mess with the game my friends and I all know and love and play as it was intended for your own selfish reasons.

Signed.. ticked off.

ODDity.

[JDW]

Guys, don't be hatin' .

The changes were a bit extreme, I agree. But maybe some sort of experimentation is required. I do agree that there are a lot of tech not used very often, and maybe this needs looking into. But, like I said before, don't be hatin'.

[ODDity]

Further to my earlier rant, I thought it might be nice to dissect, just a little bit what a few of these changes actually mean, and how they will affect you, as looking at just a bunch of numbers fails to build a picture.

Leaving out the weapons for the time being most notable changes in the bodies (for me at least) are:

Python: 15.5% more expensive, 7.3% less armour (negligible) but a large chunk 29.3% less HP, 15% longer to produce

Mantis: 22.3% more expensive, 16% less armour 30% less HP, 22% longer to produce

Tiger: 21% more expensive, 16% less armour, 28.17% less HP, 21.35% longer to produce

I don't have a view on the mantis or vengance bodies really, as in a good multi-player game with normal oil it's rare for the game to get teched up to that level, assuming a T1, no bases start and an normal to aggressive style of play.

So basically stuff is more expensive and weaker. In multi-player games on normal oil, one is typically racing for something like twin assault gun, which already does a good job at owning the field, further weakening the bodies to this is not acceptable.. but it gets better when we examine the propulsion changes:

Tracks, yes those tracked vehicles you pay so much for and slowly march across the map.. now:
HP:300=>237 that's a decrease of 21% HP.

Half tracks.. The favourite choice, early/mid, possibly even late game HP:200=>160 decrease of 20% HP.

And if Hover Vs Twin assault gun wasn't already a losing battle, now beloved hover propulsion, down from HP:150=>93, that's a whopping decrease in HP of 38%.

In short, my view for normal games these changes absolutely wreck the game play, they do nothing to address any perceived imbalance of the twin assault gun in regular play, which has now become more powerful than ever before, hovers are effectively useless, and all this whilst paying more for your units.

Nice one.

[lav_coyote25]

Russian championship has shown that there are no unequivocally advantageous strategy as well as in low oil and in hi oil games, with it means that current balance is ok.

Oh lol. It showed pretty clearly that inferno spam is the only winning strategy in high-oil 1x1. It worked against absolutely anything our best players could have come up with.

will be confused by such global differences and will lose interest to a series as a whole.

Sure you remember the rebalance of v2.3 betas? It was a much harder change. The whole new weapon classes were introduced. I'm highly grateful for those changes. The current changes are pretty slight and subtle.

Oh lol. It showed pretty clearly that inferno spam is the only winning strategy in high-oil 1x1.
Results of champonship not discussed!!

not discussed!! You started it.

this is not the way to promote a good discussion. i have seen flame wars start with less. watch the tone and language. please.
to all participants. you are being watched by the community. if you have a problem. discuss in rational thought. thankyou.