Warzone 2100 Forums

Speed map painting actually (: I've just recorded myself painting another map. The map's not out yet, but you can still watch. Hope it'll be helpful. This map doesn't include all the aspects of heightmap painting i use, so i'll probably make another "speed heightmap painting" movie some day.

2Mero: yes, it includes road painting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TchM2RRGcAE

great video - with sound explaining what your doing would make it awesomer

Very nice, sir

lav_coyote25 wrote:great video - with sound explaining what your doing would make it awesomer

Indeed. Second that.

I am sure it will be very helpful to many WZ map makers - now and in the unfolding future.

One of the things I love most, and posted early on to Flail13's thread when he first introduced flaME back in Jan.- Feb. of this year, was this very strong sense I had of being able to "paint", which I never really had with EW to any significant degree. Since I am painter, this painterly experience with using flaME accounts for a goodly portion of my enjoyment in making maps with it and if you enjoy something to that degree, putting a lot into a project does not at all feel like like long, hard, work - it just feels fun.

Alright then. Must vamoose again.

- L8r, RV
.

The map is finished now, so you can see how it actually looks.

lav_coyote25 wrote:with sound explaining what your doing would make it awesomer

Hmm, i'm not ready to show off my voice yet (:

Rman Virgil wrote:One of the things I love most, and posted early on to Flail13's thread when he first introduced flaME back in Jan.- Feb. of this year, was this very strong sense I had of being able to "paint", which I never really had with EW to any significant degree.

Yeah, i didn't ever try EW, but i still think i know what you mean. But, well, actually, when you take flaME in your hands, you should already have the heightmap, so the map is almost done by that time (:

.

Seems the only way to resist posting is to not visit at all & that is hard. Oh well.

Rman Virgil wrote:One of the things I love most, and posted early on to Flail13's thread when he first introduced flaME back in Jan.- Feb. of this year, was this very strong sense I had of being able to "paint", which I never really had with EW to any significant degree.

hao wrote:Yeah, i didn't ever try EW, but i still think i know what you mean. But, well, actually, when you take flaME in your hands, you should already have the heightmap, so the map is almost done by that time (:

True about the HM - up to a point, for me anyway. Let me elaborate quickly.

I approach my HMs like I do drawings with charcoal or Conti crayon and get much of it the way I want it for the finished map at the macro-level.....

The exception to the macro-level detailing I do in the HM are the nuances of map craft that effect PF / PW A.I. (esp in MP) and Skirmish A.I. dynamic emergent offensive & defensive behavior. These nuances I have to be in-game to really see & evaluate in play-testing (I cannot thoroughly visualize when making my HM to this micro-level) and from there comes the need modify, mostly by painting adjustments and vertex tweaking.

These micro-level painting adjustments done in flaME after play-testing evaluations allow me to masterfully shape Skirmish A.I. emergent behavior on both mobile offense and fixed-defense - the mobile offense behavior being the more difficult of the two to master control over through sheer map crafting as opposed to doing it by altering the scripting and making a custom A.I. for the map.

This last approach also has the advantage over writing custom A.I. in that it is dynamic and not linear because the Skirmish A.I. is scripted to reflect different personalities (I'm speaking of Dylan Dog's DyDo) that can be changed (along with alliances) at start of game thus making playing the same map more unpredictable with each separate play occasion in SP.

So the short answer is that I can only achieve all the forgoing by micro-level painting adjustments in flaME after play-testing evaluations and cannot do it all in my initial macro-level HM no matter how detailed I make it (which I'm quite capable of making as detailed as a charcoal or Conti crayon drawing but that's purely aesthetics and not shaping the in-game PF / PW and Skirmish A.I.s that can be very much influenced by sheer map craft which most are not even aware of how to do from what I can see of released maps).

NOTE: PF / PW = Path Finding / Path Walking.

ALSO: Even if I did my PRE-flaME Macro-level design like in the high-end editor screen-cap example below - I would still need to do Micro-Level painting adjustments in flaME based on play-testing iteration evaluations to get to the finished state I am after with regards to what I consider optimized A.I. performance.

- Regards, RV

.

Oh my, i'm talking to some real artist!

So the short answer is that I can only achieve all the forgoing by micro-level painting adjustments in flaME after play-testing evaluations and cannot do it all in my initial macro-level HM no matter how detailed I make it (which I'm quite capable of making as detailed as a charcoal or Conti crayon drawing but that's purely aesthetics and not shaping the in-game PF / PW and Skirmish A.I.s that can be very much influenced by sheer map craft which most are not even aware of how to do from what I can see of released maps).

Yeah, we aren't aware of this at all! This all seems to be very subtle. Well, i don't mind becoming aware of it. Can you please make me/us aware? (: (: (: You can just give some links if you did it already (:

I remember you commenting on one of my maps about gateways, but i guess there are more aspects in this art. I've been trying to make multiplayer-oriented maps most of the time, so i'm starting to forget about bots (that seem to look more and more unworthy while i improve my gaming skills). But i don't mind learning how to make a map good for bots; it's gonna be a nice addition to it! (:

.

Rman wrote:So the short answer is that I can only achieve all the forgoing by micro-level painting adjustments in flaME after play-testing evaluations and cannot do it all in my initial macro-level HM no matter how detailed I make it (which I'm quite capable of making as detailed as a charcoal or Conti crayon drawing but that's purely aesthetics and not shaping the in-game PF / PW and Skirmish A.I.s that can be very much influenced by sheer map craft which most are not even aware of how to do from what I can see of released maps).

hao wrote:Oh my, i'm talking to some real artist!

Yeah, we aren't aware of this at all! This all seems to be very subtle. Well, i don't mind becoming aware of it. Can you please make me/us aware? (: (: (: You can just give some links if you did it already (:

I remember you commenting on one of my maps about gateways, but i guess there are more aspects in this art. I've been trying to make multiplayer-oriented maps most of the time, so i'm starting to forget about bots (that seem to look more and more unworthy while i improve my gaming skills). But i don't mind learning how to make a map good for bots; it's gonna be a nice addition to it! (:

Don't come by the bbs regular anymore. Buddy told me about your post so I'm here. Don't like to leave folks "hanging".

"Subtleties" is a good word for the techniques (especially the ones that evoke types of Ski A.I. Mobile Offensive Maneuver Behavior) but trying to explain cold (without a practical application reference) would take way too many words that would come off as too mysterious and I think it would be much better to give you a working sample that I'm sure you could analyze and then we could talk from there about it.

I'm traveling again and I don't carry my WZ stuff anymore so I won't be tempted - gotta stay focused on my current projects at least through the beginning of next year. But I will be back home in a couple weeks at which time I'll send you the file.

I'm holding off releasing this file publically for 2 reasons.

1.) When Buggy finishes creating MP support for the big Tank Transport I'll need to make some essential modifications to account for that.

2.) I'm also thinking of making a change to Dylan Dog's DyDo to public distro with my project file. Basically that change amounts to putting in a script called move_base_event. This was something we talked about a long time ago and Troman developed and put into early Aivolution and also NIKER incorporated into BecomePrey but Dylan left out of DyDo. I like the script and it works really well with what I've done... so...

Anyway... I'll be in touch in a couple weeks with that file.

- Regards, RV

EDIT: On the matter of Map-making for Peep MP vs. BOT play only.

Pre-source liberation I had access to site & DL statistics for years and I can tell you that the folks who just play SP Skirmish far out number those who only play MP with peeps.

One of the early maps I designed and collaborated on back in '99 with the great Laws245 (he could do everything really well) were called Citadel (for MP) and Citadel Elite (for SP Ski). Citadel Elite was the most popular map/mod/custom a.i. DL for 5 years running.

From my PoV almost all the 1000 plus maps made for WZ since day one have had an MP design focus. My interest is now mainly focused on making map game play for that vast silent majority who only play SP Ski which is why I've focused so much attention on playing against BOTs and how to make it as interesting as possible via map craft.
.

Bump. Another vid.

Noooo You really need to learn more about the entire map painter my friend. It doesnt paint as well as you, but you could certainly save 2 minutes in the video with it.

entire map painter

I don't yet see how to use it to paint over an existing heightmap (?), and i don't yet like the idea of the heightmap being painted by a generator (:

You could (for exemple) ask to paint every tile over 240 height in snow. And then even add some patches of gravel only inside that snow.

I understand the concept but i still fail to see any buttons for this. I remember some whole map painter in the previous versions of FlaME, though i never found it useful, but i don't see anything like that in the latest releases, apart from the generator that doesn't seem to do what you say.

I have a speed painting video that I'd like to share with you. Thanks for the idea of making some map speed painting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5V4H9Gpn94

Another speed map painting (heightmap and some texture) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi3N99wHtPc. Enjoy this video and I hope it will give you some inspiration.