Warzone 2100 Forums

2.3.5 (final) is almost ready to be released, this is your last chance for feedback on all the balance changes in 2.3.5 RC4.

Speak your mind now, or don't come crying later.

Remember, you must tell us why you don't like the change(s), and how you would improve it.

Thanks!

2.3.5 has been released, this isn't needed anymore.

*reserved*

I think the new balance is "ok."

The changes to the rocket tree are great, as is the addition of Sundburst AA.

My only concern is the neutering of AA Flak. I think either the cost needs to come down, or the damage needs to go back up. Whirlwind seems to out perform it, mostly due to economics.

I haven't tested air-to-air weapons, so no comment.

Hmm, whirlwind comes later too, i think.

Yes, Whirlwind will come after AA Flak. Maybe I'm not seeing the new AA in the correct light? I thought they were suppose to simplify AA research by providing AA in the same tech tree as the other main weapons (Whirlwind = machine gun/hurricane, AA Flak = Cannon, Sunburst = Rocket).

In my mind Hurricane should be sufficient until you can research Whirlwind; Sunburst should do until Avenger; and AA Flak should stay strong, or Cyclone should be it's prerequisite with AA Flak should come later.

Right now, the only advantage to AA Flak I can see is its high HP. Not high enough to justify costing almost double Whirlwind to build, though. FWIW, I've found the only effective Vtol weapon against its HP are Plasmite bombs, and because of how poorly the AA inflicts damage to the tank HP levels we have at the Plasmite stage of the game the AA doesn't stand a chance.

Maybe a slight change in the damage scale is in order? Here I've changed the start of each damage tier to be 50% more than the previous tier:

• 125% - HEAT Cannon Shells
  150% - HEAT Cannon Shells Mk2
  175% - HEAT Cannon Shells Mk3
  225% - APFSDS Cannon Rounds
  250% - APFSDS Cannon Rounds Mk2
  275% - APFSDS Cannon Rounds Mk3
  325% - HVAPFSDS Cannon Rounds
  350% - HVAPFSDS Cannon Rounds Mk2
  375% - HVAPFSDS Cannon Rounds Mk3

If I'm right that would help keep it from being too powerful too early, but give Cannon enthusiasts AA until Stormbringer.

Buginator wrote:2.3.5 (final) is almost ready to be released, this is your last chance for feedback on all the balance changes in 2.3.5_rc4.

Polls don't work well in the current news system. Oh, well, it isn't awful...

effigy wrote:Right now, the only advantage to AA Flak I can see is its high HP. Not high enough to justify costing almost double Whirlwind to build, though. FWIW, I've found the only effective Vtol weapon against its HP are Plasmite bombs, and because of how poorly the AA inflicts damage to the tank HP levels we have at the Plasmite stage of the game the AA doesn't stand a chance.

Also splash damage. Flak Cannon has the highest splash of any AA weapon. Also lack of need to research another upgrade progression.

Also, Sunburst and Flak Cannon are intentionally a bit on the weak side - introducing two weapons and making them ultrapowerful would mess with balance a bit too much.

Zarel wrote: Also, Sunburst and Flak Cannon are intentionally a bit on the weak side - introducing two weapons and making them ultrapowerful would mess with balance a bit too much.

If you insist on leaving the Flak Cannon underpowered for long term play, then please reduce the cost of building it. The splash damage isn't worth much when used in AA, imho, because typically a Vtol attack will 1st remove AA, and 2nd whatever will put your enemy behind you the most. Point being, if you don't loose Vtol in that 1st wave the guy with Flak AA is screwed for wave 2 because once your Vtol are rearmed/healed your unit production will have made increased your Vtol count significatly. At the current price Flak can't be rebuilt fast enough to compensate.

Sunburst turrets are very cheap to research, and sites are moderate to build and I guess that's fine. It just makes me wonder why Flak is so costly.

effigy wrote:If you insist on leaving the Flak Cannon underpowered for long term play, then please reduce the cost of building it. The splash damage isn't worth much when used in AA, imho, because typically a Vtol attack will 1st remove AA, and 2nd whatever will put your enemy behind you the most. Point being, if you don't loose Vtol in that 1st wave the guy with Flak AA is screwed for wave 2 because once your Vtol are rearmed/healed your unit production will have made increased your Vtol count significatly. At the current price Flak can't be rebuilt fast enough to compensate.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Splash damage means groups of Flak Cannons can take out large numbers of VTOLs (especially light VTOLs) at once. VTOL attacks usually remove AA first, yes, but that's the same no matter what type of AA you have.

effigy wrote:Sunburst turrets are very cheap to research, and sites are moderate to build and I guess that's fine. It just makes me wonder why Flak is so costly.

Because, at the beginning, Wisler, 3dRTS, LuckyLuke, and a lot of others noticed that Flak was overpowered. Flak Cannon emplacement is 300 power, not that much more than the 250 power Sunburst, and you get around twice the HP and 2 more armor. Also, Sunburst cost 187 power to research, not that much less than Flak Cannon's 225, either.

I think cannons should be made better, i dont know why but they always seem to underperform to me and impossible to use them in a 1v1.

This is partly because you get bonuses kinda from which weapon tech you use,

MG= best AA/ easy to start with/ easy to res/ cheap/fast to deploy/target air also/good light borgs.

Rocket/missile= average, then very good AA/artillery/good defensive structues/easy to start with/ average to res/ very good light borgs.

Cannons= avarege AA/average defense/ impossible to start with(tested a bunch of times) / super hard to res/no good light borgs.

i havnt ressed cannons in a long time in 1v1 or team game, i know they give a bit of a boost to mg AAs and howuies but that just not seem worth it.

I already posted my issues about balance, but nobody replied. As Wisler said MG branch too powerful.

I got commentor question
why AA flak cannon removed for vtols

Terminator wrote:I already posted my issues about balance, but nobody replied. As Wisler said MG branch too powerful.

Wisler wrote:I think cannons should be made better, i dont know why but they always seem to underperform to me and impossible to use them in a 1v1.

...
While suggestions are always welcome, this really has nothing to do with this thread.

Also, Terminator, where did you post your balance issues?

take 1.10 balance, that was better . it didnt make all the stuff useful, but that wasnt needed anyway.
some things are well done in 2.x, most things are not so nice (would be to much here).
take it easy...

-- Delphinio

Delphinio wrote:take 1.10 balance, that was better . it didnt make all the stuff useful, but that wasnt needed anyway.
some things are well done in 2.x, most things are not so nice (would be to much here).
take it easy...

-- Delphinio

...
While suggestions are always welcome, this really has nothing to do with this thread.

Zarel wrote:

effigy wrote:If you insist on leaving the Flak Cannon underpowered for long term play, then please reduce the cost of building it. The splash damage isn't worth much when used in AA, imho, because typically a Vtol attack will 1st remove AA, and 2nd whatever will put your enemy behind you the most. Point being, if you don't loose Vtol in that 1st wave the guy with Flak AA is screwed for wave 2 because once your Vtol are rearmed/healed your unit production will have made increased your Vtol count significatly. At the current price Flak can't be rebuilt fast enough to compensate.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Splash damage means groups of Flak Cannons can take out large numbers of VTOLs (especially light VTOLs) at once. VTOL attacks usually remove AA first, yes, but that's the same no matter what type of AA you have.

I'm saying it's not usefull to have 1 site damage 5 vtol (or however it turns out) because after the wave the vtol go back to a pad and get full HP restored. It's only useful if you either have enough sites to destroy a decent number of the attacking vtol, or if a lesser number of sites are strong enough to kill a respectable number of vtol.

Zarel wrote: Because, at the beginning, Wisler, 3dRTS, LuckyLuke, and a lot of others noticed that Flak was overpowered. Flak Cannon emplacement is 300 power, not that much more than the 250 power Sunburst, and you get around twice the HP and 2 more armor. Also, Sunburst cost 187 power to research, not that much less than Flak Cannon's 225, either.

I see the guide says $250, but it's only $56 in game.