Retaining experience upon death

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JFM
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by JFM »

No, my last campaign was on hard. :-) I built thirty nine combat units and that was all except for AA units and except for a couple scenarios where I needed cannon fodder since there was no way to prevent losses (plus Gamma2 where you temporarily lose the units present at end of scenario) I didn't build additional combat units and I managed to end most scenarios with zero losses. Even the "Destroy primary SAM sites" one.

BTW Gamma1 was a nasty shock when I discovered that I had zero energy so I couldn't repair and that before anything I had to conquer a base and seize the four barrels in it so I could build a power station.


Now I don't pretend my strategy would be good against a human opponent and I think I would be a lousy player against a human. Also my tacics are not the only possible ones. They are optimized for ascending units and for not losing any of them but there a other possible ones: like cyborg waves (you don't acre about getting experienced units in this case) or using inexperinced units under a good commander for the shield. In this case you get experienced units and care about their loss but they are in the hammer: see below for what is the shield and what is the hammer.

My tactics were:

1) Retreat at medium damage

2) Slow the game before entering combat, reset speed once the enemy is dispatched

2) A shield group and a killer group.

3) The shield group was composed of six tanks and my highest ranked commander. No more than six tanks since more than that tends to create choke points where retreating units are blocked by advancing ones and get killed. if necessary micromanage damaged units. Also the shield group is composed of tanks (ie heavy cannon) because its main mission is not destroying anything
but taking hits and for most of the game the heavy cannon is the turret with the highest hit points you have.

4) A hammer group composed of what is better to destroy the opposition: bunkerbusters (rarely), anti-tank missiles or artillery. Once I got howitzers and ripple rockets I tended to rely more and more on artillery and less on other types of units for the hammer: the reason is that it is easy to create a fire group of twenty units or so and do it without creating choke points. Against Nexus I relied nearly exclusively on artillery since Nexus doesn't use tracked units. Anothe advantage of artillery is that you can transfer firepower very quickly between two points far awy from one another: have two commanders and atttach the guns to one or the other.

5) Remember Red Army's artillery preparations in front of Berlin? That is me. :-) I massively use artillery. Twenty units at least.
also I don't rely exclusively on high damage but slow reloading units like ripple rockets: too often they deliver two or three times more firepower than needed to destroy and then for a whole minute you are left with another enemy unit firing at you with impunity. That is why I ever have rapid firing units (pepperpots first, later hellstorms) in my artillery groups. In fact weren't it for the relatively short range I would tend to recommend using heelstorms over anything else: a single salvo of twenty hellstorms wil destroy anything with a second one (for another target) quickly on its way. But in practice I recommend balanced groups.

6) When enemy has artillery who is really able to do harm then take care of it _first_: mos of the time I rely on my own artillery units (so they get the experience points) and I attach them to a counterbattery radar (more exactly: to cmmander with plenty XP I have temporarily converted to counterbattery radar). When enemy counterbattery fire is so strong it could destroy any of my units (eg Gamma9) then I build ripplerocket positions and rebuild them as they get destroyed until the enemy is weakened enough he can no longer destroy an artillery unit in a single salvo. A this point my mobile units take charge of finishing off enemy artillery.

7) Prefer heavy chassisses. Hit and run is nice and dandy but unless you outrange the enemy (mots of the time it is him who outranges you) you are going to take hits and Bugs or Viper chassis can be destroyed in a single salvo. For units in the "Hammer group" I found that the Mantis chassi is a good compromise between mobility, protection and ability to carry a heay turret. For the "Shield group" I recycle Pythons to Tigers as soon they are available, later Tigers to Retribution (nearly as much HP and more armor) and Retribution to Vengeance.

8) I built zero cyborgs. Far too vulnerable to my tastes.

9) I used VTOLS (only Phosphor bomb VTOLs) until the enemy got SAMs then I recycled them. I recycled other units into VTOLs for Beta11 (Evacuate) where VTOLs bombing Collective columns with Phosphor played a vital part in my defence) then I recycled them again and didn't make a single VTOL sortie in all of Gamma.

10) In Beta11 (Evacuate) and Gamma 8 (Missile Codes) I found that the best defence is a well placed wall with a radar turret behind it and my twenty or more artillery units ready to attach to the turret ho is detecting enemy units.

11) Since at Gamma 6 you will be getting ten units with more than 2048 XP (the requirement for a hero leader) it doesn't make sense to push a a commander or radar unit beyond 512 XP: Recycle it into a hero ordinary unit then recycle a unit who is close to ascending into a commander (commanders get XP faster than ordinary units so you can use your commanders as "lifters"'). Once you get the Gamma 6 heroes recycle them into leaders.

12) Against scourge towers since they outrange cmmanders I sent tanks forward but _didn't_ ordered to attack the towers: that means getting deep into the tower killing range and possibly enterinng the range of another tower. Instead I ordered them to proceed to a point where they would be between the tower and a commander (commanders are tougher than radar units) with my usual twenty artillery units attached to it. At the end I had a damaged tank retreating to the repair station and a smouldering hole where the scourge tower used to be. I didn't resort to the "craven strategy": build a radar tower out of range of the scourge tower.

13) Build repair stations as I advance so my "supply lines" remain short.
JFM
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by JFM »

At Normal, a Scourge doublehit does 1424 - 2*armor to Tracks. Tiger Tracks have 2520 HP and 61 armor by G1, so two Scourge towers is enough to kill a Tiger Tracks. And Tiger Tracks are not very manueverable; it's easy to get hit by the second while you're trying to retreat.

I haven't checked your calculations but I find them odd as I saw my tanks take hit after hit from scourge towers without being destroyed. I am not sure even a single hit was enough for putting them in the Medium damage zone. I was playing on hard using 2.3 version . Could it be because by then with all the upgrades tanks have far more HP and armor than stated in their basic stats? (True the scourges should have gone through the same process). Also by the time I meet scourges my tanks are at Veteran or Elite level.

For another objection you had: I don't steamroll the opposition. First because trying to destroy scourge towers with tanks means suicide, what I do is cover an artillery controller with a shield of tanks and second because on a typical base assault my tanks are forced to retreat several times (better suspend the offensive before you get to your last healthy tank as otherwise it will have to undergo through a dangerous retreat) and I have either to push another tank group forward or suspend the offensive. In fact what I do could be described as the Tiger tank version of hit and run. :-)
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Zarel
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by Zarel »

JFM wrote:At Normal, a Scourge doublehit does 1424 - 2*armor to Tracks. Tiger Tracks have 2520 HP and 61 armor by G1, so two Scourge towers is enough to kill a Tiger Tracks. And Tiger Tracks are not very manueverable; it's easy to get hit by the second while you're trying to retreat.

I haven't checked your calculations but I find them odd as I saw my tanks take hit after hit from scourge towers without being destroyed. I am not sure even a single hit was enough for putting them in the Medium damage zone. I was playing on hard using 2.3 version . Could it be because by then with all the upgrades tanks have far more HP and armor than stated in their basic stats? (True the scourges should have gone through the same process). Also by the time I meet scourges my tanks are at Veteran or Elite level.
Well, 2520 HP and 61 armor is after Dense Composite Alloys Mk3, which is what you'd have after G1. If you had Superdense Composite Alloys, which I don't think you get until G5 or something, it'd be more, but even at SDCA Mk3 that'd still be only three Scourge doublehits. If I did miss something, it was probably something else. I mean, I even left out the Hard modifier, which would've reduced the effective HP/armor by another 20%. Maybe Nexus scourges weren't fully upgraded. I don't actually know how upgrades work on the AI-side of campaign.
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by JFM »

My tanks were veteran or Elite that reduces damage (so 4 double hits instead of 3) and reduces probability of being hit. 4 double hits means being hit eight times. If after modifiers you only have 1 chance in 2 of being hit it means that there is only 1 chance in 256 of a scourge tower firing four times at you and the eight rockets hitting. Also well before it can fire four times my tank will be retreating and the scourge tower will be firing at a closer one. Also well before it can destroy a tank the scourge tower will be hit by the fire of 20 artillery units or more. :-)

Anyway for the purposes of this discussion (experience not being lost when a unit dies) the fact tanks can be easily destroyed by scourges or on the contrary can withstand a lot of their attacks is irrelevant. If the scourge tower can easily destroy a tank then the answer is to form a group of inexperienced (that means expendable) tanks under a good leader. If tanks are a hard nut to crack for a scourge tower then you can afford to use experienced (that means precious) units in the shield group. But in both cases your experienced artillery, bunkerbusters or tank killers stay behind the tanks and blow away the tower without ever being fired upon by the tower. If you lose a unit in your hammer group it is because you made a mistake and you deserve to lose it. Using experienced units for the shield was an act of bravado of my part due to the fact I noticed that my tanks had to be hit a lot of times before being destroyed but if you modify the game to make scourges stronger I will just use rookie tanks and use the experience points on additional artillery or tank killers.

Now pursuing the goal of ascending units in conjunction with a strategy of "frail" but cheap units like cyborgs is still possible: you only need to be careful to screen your experienced units (who do the killing) with a line of expendable ones (who do the dying). I used a strategy of heavily armored units, artillery and very light losses because I hate having to write emails to electronic widows and orphans.
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JDW
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

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I like this kid, JFM, he's smart :wink:
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Zarel
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by Zarel »

Yes, which brings the discussion full circle - making sure the units you lose are unexperienced is unnecessary micromanagement.
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JDW
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by JDW »

Zarel, have you thought about increasing the percentage of armor upgrade to a level that will give tanks a chance of fleeing just in time, if not undertaking a successful counter-attack?

I'm just throwing ideas at you and hoping that it will stick :)
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Zarel
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by Zarel »

j0shdrunk0nwar wrote:Zarel, have you thought about increasing the percentage of armor upgrade to a level that will give tanks a chance of fleeing just in time, if not undertaking a successful counter-attack?
Armor upgrades are balanced - I don't want to mess with them. Unkillable units hardly make for fun games.
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

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Zarel wrote:Unkillable units hardly make for fun games.
Point taken.
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JFM
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by JFM »

First of all a correction: by the time I meet scourges my five initial commanders have reached 512 XP and have been recycled into tanks. Hero tanks. (Five other units have been recycled to commanders) So when the scourges fire at my tank group they are firing at Hero + 1 (they are attached to a commander) tanks. So damage is cut in half and probability of being hit is < 50%.

Second: I don't micromanage units. I form one or two shield groups (tanks) each one under a commander, one or two hammer groups from antitank missiles each one under a commander and for artillery depending on situation it is either attached to one of the combat commanders or under control of a commander who has no direct fire units attached Shield and hammer aren't formed by the same type of units. Then I assign objectives to the groups not to individual units.

The only case I micromanage anything is when a retreating unit still under fire collides with an advancing unit and both units begin bumbling around turning in the same direction and blocking one another. At this point I step up, play traffic cop and as soon as the damaged unit is on its way to the repair station I reattach it to its commander and forget about it.

BTW: I really, really would like being able to select units by their experience level (eg all veterans)
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by Roux Le Corps »

please do not kill me for this but how about adding the experience recycle as a research option? means you can put it in the main and have its as a bonus, like self repair or nexus link resistance?

I've read your stuff and i know your approach i'm just trying to find an even ground between your idea and the 'toggle' ideas, also it means in SP and MP that the option to micro is there ^_^ i happen to like a little micro
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

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Roux Le Corps wrote:please do not kill me for this but how about adding the experience recycle as a research option? means you can put it in the main and have its as a bonus, like self repair or nexus link resistance?
It wouldn't interfere too much if it were, no, but it doesn't make sense as a research option. Not really worth the effort to implement. It works far better than a normal option. Anti-frustration stuff generally shouldn't be researched.
Roux Le Corps wrote:I've read your stuff and i know your approach i'm just trying to find an even ground between your idea and the 'toggle' ideas, also it means in SP and MP that the option to micro is there ^_^ i happen to like a little micro
The option to micro has always been there. It can be a self-imposed challenge, or simply a method to reclaim the last 25% of experience you would otherwise have lost. There'll also be an option to turn it off.
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by Roux Le Corps »

in that case apart from a small suggestion my point was void ^_^
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Dylan Hsu
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by Dylan Hsu »

Zarel, I disagree with this idea. There's no basis in the story of Warzone nor in gameplay for keeping experience of a unit you threw away. The game should encourage intelligent management of units, not throwing swarms of tanks at a wall and recouping experience from kills. There's no need for this. And yes, I've read everything here.
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Re: Retaining experience upon death

Post by JFM »

Zarel I disagree about your assertion that trying to preserve experienced units involves micromanagement. IN WZ2100 there are units who are good at dishing damage and poor at taking it while others are good at taking damage and not that good at inflicting it.
It is just common sense to place your units in a such way that the takers will be the first ones to enter enemy range so they will be fired upon while the second ones will stay behind them and fire with impunity. It is also common sense in case if you expect the "taker" units will suffer losses that you don't build experienced units from this type: use inexperienced units attached to a good commander instead And that doesn't involve any micromanagement: whether you are using tanks and lancers for a zero or near zero losses strategy or gun cyborgs and lancer cyborgs for a cannon-fodder strategy but still preserving experienced units the basics remain the same: click on a "damage taker" unit, CTRl-Z and assign them to a commander, point the commander to the objective, click on "damage giver", CTRL-Z, assign to a commander and point it to the objective. When the shield begins to grow thin (either because its units have been destroyed or because they are repairing) order the giver group to retreat then the taker group. Where is the micromanagement?

Also I remind you that commanders (whose destruction is easy to prevent since they are tougher and feaster than ordinary units using the same chassis) allow to use inexperienced units in the taker group and have them be as tough as experienced ones. That is another reason to say that if a player lost a very experienced unit it is because he played badly and should pay for his mistake by losing the whole of its experience
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