How should I deal with bad suggestions?

[virgilglyph]

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@ KenAlcock: Well stated & presented. This all works too. In billion dollar industry, mission-critical organizations and successful R & D in RL.

At this point, what is no longer common knowledge is that the WZ community operated successfully under these precepts between 1999 and Q1 of 2005 and that such operation was instrumental to the eventual release of the source code itself. Indeed, having been assured the source would be released 3 months prior to organizing for its distro that original community prepared for the source with these specific precepts you eloquently state as the chosen model for going forward. Post Q1 2005 this was all rejected in favor of a quite different modus-operandi that held identifiable leadership along these lines anathema and preferred a collectivist approach to project organization. I do not think the clock will ever be turned back. The irony is that the collectivist approach could never have succeeded in getting the source liberated or keeping the game alive till that event came to pass.

All terribly fascinating as a microcosm of contrasting societal dynamics.

Cheers, VG
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[iap]

Its funny that you are asking this question, because watching from the side you usually give the most fair, accurate and patient answers of all, even to individuals who are nagging or trolling.

Anyway, just saying "I'm afraid I can't do that" is better then saying nothing. I think it is better then anything else I can think of...

[sautedman]

At least with me, it's not with suggestions being rejected in itself or being rejected straightforward. The point is rather i would like to know why they are rejected. It would make me (other folks as well, i believe) fell better if you could just give some explanation as to why you deem a suggestion bad. Stating "It crashes balance." or "Too hard to implement." just reads like a cheap disguise for "I don't like it, stfu!" Now, i do not ask for a detailed report about how implementing any suggestion would affect game mechanics, neither am i capable of understanding lengthly lectures about coding in C. But just give a two sentence comment outlining your issue with the original suggestion. This might also give forum members a better understanding on what can and can not be done and lead to fewer bad suggestions in the long run.

I agree with this. I am not a huge contributor on the forums, but I have read a lot of postings. I often come away from reading thinking that wz has fallen victim to the problem that a lot of open projects get ... a core group of dedicatees that shut out new ideas.

[Zarel]

At least with me, it's not with suggestions being rejected in itself or being rejected straightforward. The point is rather i would like to know why they are rejected. It would make me (other folks as well, i believe) fell better if you could just give some explanation as to why you deem a suggestion bad. Stating "It crashes balance." or "Too hard to implement." just reads like a cheap disguise for "I don't like it, stfu!" Now, i do not ask for a detailed report about how implementing any suggestion would affect game mechanics, neither am i capable of understanding lengthly lectures about coding in C. But just give a two sentence comment outlining your issue with the original suggestion. This might also give forum members a better understanding on what can and can not be done and lead to fewer bad suggestions in the long run.

For balance issues, the main problem is that balance... is a delicate thing. Part of it's intuition. If you think your suggestion will improve balance, the easiest way is to make a mod, and test it out. If it turns out it improves the game, I'll gladly integrate it into the game itself. Otherwise, I do try to give a several-sentence explanation of what I think a modification will be detrimental to game balance, and there are many balance suggestions I accept because I do agree with them (one of 3dRTS's recent posts noted that both his balance suggestions were implemented in some form).

I think I do give a two-sentence comment outlining my issue with suggestions, whenever I can.

[milo christiansen]

Stating "It crashes balance." or "Too hard to implement." just reads like a cheap disguise for "I don't like it, stfu!"

Sometimes that is all the answer there is, just because you don't like it dosn't make it untrue.

[Zarel]

That, too. What do I say, besides "too difficult to implement", if it's the truth?

[RBL-4NiK8r]

Well back in the old days I would flame, trash or just be a total azz to anyone that asked for Naval Units in game and a few other things that just didnt fit into this game or changed the balance to much or could not be done. To me the only bad suggestions is one that you never make an keep to your self, but here to common sense can go a long way as to what is good or not.


4nE

[nobby]

Just be nicer about it.

I've tried.

As my post mentions: "I've tried to seem friendlier and all that for around a year now, but I'm still getting feedback that I'm being a bit rude at times, so here's the only other option I could think of..."

So while trying to be nicer about it isn't getting anywhere, I figured I'd try a different approach.

Saying negative things nicely is hard on forums of any sort because they lack the same conversational cues as any written medium. Usenet used to be notorious for this and flame wars caused by this are are two a penny on any forum (actually forums.WZ2100.net is quite civilized by the standards of these things). There is something to be said for directness and clarity, in that it does clearly explain the point under discussion. However, the nature of this type of forum system means that you really can't do anything that will guarantee that no-one gets their nose gets out of joint.

[sautedman]

At least with me, it's not with suggestions being rejected in itself or being rejected straightforward. The point is rather i would like to know why they are rejected. It would make me (other folks as well, i believe) fell better if you could just give some explanation as to why you deem a suggestion bad. Stating "It crashes balance." or "Too hard to implement." just reads like a cheap disguise for "I don't like it, stfu!" Now, i do not ask for a detailed report about how implementing any suggestion would affect game mechanics, neither am i capable of understanding lengthly lectures about coding in C. But just give a two sentence comment outlining your issue with the original suggestion. This might also give forum members a better understanding on what can and can not be done and lead to fewer bad suggestions in the long run.

For balance issues, the main problem is that balance... is a delicate thing. Part of it's intuition. If you think your suggestion will improve balance, the easiest way is to make a mod, and test it out. If it turns out it improves the game, I'll gladly integrate it into the game itself. Otherwise, I do try to give a several-sentence explanation of what I think a modification will be detrimental to game balance, and there are many balance suggestions I accept because I do agree with them (one of 3dRTS's recent posts noted that both his balance suggestions were implemented in some form).

I think I do give a two-sentence comment outlining my issue with suggestions, whenever I can.

Intuition really should not be the basis for decisions. Games are mechanical and don't use intuition. You should use your knowledge of how the game works to present a reasoned argument against a proposition. I know you are saying that you reply as fully as possible, but I can't count the number of times when it hasn't been sufficient.

Perhaps even worse is when you get into a discussion and then abandon it. This has happened a couple of times, and it feels like just as a point was getting made, you lost interest. If you would like examples, I can provide them.

As for those cases where you feel there isn't anything more to say, dig a little deeper. There has to be a reason. If there isn't, you really shouldn't be knocking down.

[Zarel]

Intuition really should not be the basis for decisions. Games are mechanical and don't use intuition. You should use your knowledge of how the game works to present a reasoned argument against a proposition. I know you are saying that you reply as fully as possible, but I can't count the number of times when it hasn't been sufficient.

Perhaps even worse is when you get into a discussion and then abandon it. This has happened a couple of times, and it feels like just as a point was getting made, you lost interest. If you would like examples, I can provide them.

Sure, examples would be nice.

Games may be mechanical, but they're usually complex enough that a certain level of intuition is required. Intuition, after all, is merely the ability to estimate the result of a series of complex computations without calculating the result by hand. If you disagree with my intuition that MG borgs should win against flamer borgs in a fight, you can always test it out yourself.

As for those cases where you feel there isn't anything more to say, dig a little deeper. There has to be a reason. If there isn't, you really shouldn't be knocking down.

How can there really by anything other than "I don't know how to do this", if it's something I don't know how to do?

[Corporal Punishment]

How can there really by anything other than "I don't know how to do this", if it's something I don't know how to do?

This is a flaw imminent to forums, I believe. Anyone around the globe can join, what means people don't know and probably never will get to know each other. All we see is text on a computer screen, what we don't see is all these little things that affect communication in real life. Body language, the mood someone is in right now, heck, most of the time we don't even know what culture somebody is from (what takes great effect on how they communicate). I've had pretty much wine tonight and figure I'm getting distracted right now. What was it I wanted to write? Right. Zarel doesn't know how to do something and says so. The point is, on the guide to writing bug reports is a passage that reads something like "Developers know their software like the back of their hands." The statement "I don't know how to do this." is seemingly in contravention to the above quote in written form. Talking to the person hiding behind the alias Zarel face to face, knowing about how and to what extend he/she (this is actually where confusion starts on the Internet) gained coding skills and reading his/her body language the same statement will probably be way more convincing. Knowing about how busy Zarel is with real life right now wouldn't hurt either.
It's all about those parts of real life conversation we miss here. To make up for that limited bandwidth, it is most important to refine our vocal expressions beyond the horizon of face-to-face conversation. This may include putting down obvious things. It may even mean thinking half an hour about how to put something, determining exactly what connotations a word transports. Am I still making sense or am I giving a lecture on communication theory in ancient oriental studies right now? I'm not so sure about this. Anyway.
The bottom line is, whoever posts on any forum must bear in mind what the people reading the post do not see. The author will have to make up for that limitation by carefully crafting his text. Then, everything should be fine.

[Mabsterone]

@zarel: just be straight, honest and clear. best way to deal with any suggestion.

coding a project is not really about democracy, though its not bad to listen to the vibes of feedback and suggestions.
a plain: No, this does not match our coding/gamephilosophy" is a good answer for a bad suggestion.

And its way better then ignoring a suggestin like that, just make clear you dont go into argues. If you dont do that, you get lost and maybe even upset.

[themousemaster]

Zarel, one thing to be aware of when judgeing the "nicety" of one's posts is to not miss the forrest for the trees.

Specifically, I've seen a LOT of your posts. Some of civil, others might come off as haughty (rude is too broad of a term on "Teh Intarwebz").

If someone points out a "rude" post, the first thing is to realize "the post may be bad", not "my posts are bad". Goign back and editing the post may do more than changing your normally direct-approach to these things.



That said, a LOT of things come across on forums differently than anywhere else (as was mentioned before). For example...

"No".

In real life, this one word can be said a bunch of different ways, all of which meaning something different. For example, saying it in a flat (or declining) tone means "I do not wish to entertain this idea". Saying it in a raising tone (sounds like being questioned, along the lines of "Umm... no?") denotes "that is a bad idea and you should feel bad". However, with no verbal inflection, the people on the forums will not know which way to take it... and here's the rub: each person will take it as they CHOOSE to take it. If someone on the internet WANTS to be insulted, you can bet they will find a way to do it.





I found after a few years of working retail, I had a lot of insight into "human behavioral reaction"... not enough to write a successful book about it, but enough to realize that how what I said, exactly, might be interpretted different ways by different customers (or staff, for that matter).



In a forum, one of the best ways to "simulate" inflection is the use of those little smiley icons over to the right... while they might seem... well, "juvenile", they most certainly convey exact "emotion".


However, the phrase "you can't make an omlet without breaking eggs" does come to mind. I'm sure if you were to run a w-choice forum poll right now, the "majority" response would rather have an honest poster who isn't politically correct over a PR mouthpiece who never says anything wrong.



If you are worried about your "reputation"... this is a free game in a free forum. Unless you plan on using these threads as a job reference, there are bigger things to "worry" about.

[zimboptoo]

I'm gonna put another vote behind "respond, be direct, explain briefly why the idea won't happen, and move on" idea. It closes the idea down, but in a constructive way that may lead to better ideas in the future.

[GiGaBaNE]

well this post may seem woefully short after the mini book just posted above me..

ive been on the pain end of your beating stick before, and yes i can say you can certainly be blunt.
but stuff it mate, writing posts like this one in itself tells us that your not deliberatly being rude, but its just the way you talk.

maybe edit an explanation or kind of appology into your sig.

as a real world example, ive been very tempted to get myself a t-shirt made with the following quote printed on it.

"no i wasnt giving you a dirty look, this is my face!"